<![CDATA[Programmer's Town - Mathematics vs computer science]]>
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Mon, 19 Dec 2016 15:27:00 +0000PunBB<![CDATA[Re: Mathematics vs computer science]]>
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Hello, Evgeny. Panasyuk, you wrote: EP> It is faster from ignorance of appropriate terms. With knowledge of appropriate terms a whisker in the full order. But that personally for me their scanty application only is more evident.]]>Mon, 19 Dec 2016 15:27:00 +0000http://www.progtown.com/post39091767.html#p39091767<![CDATA[Re: Mathematics vs computer science]]>
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Hello, Voblin, you wrote: EP>> Are engaged, including mathematics. V> All question in what share of this most "including". By experience I will tell that the scanty. It is faster from ignorance of appropriate terms. Whether here for example many are known that such by Hoare logic, Hoarovsky triples, variants of cycles? Nevertheless at imperative programming it is all arises (and even intuitively it is applied) almost permanently. V> and this mathematics let not , but it is exact not level. And I did not speak that it is any deep, difficult or super-abstract mathematics. Normally really all is very simple and is is specific.]]>Mon, 19 Dec 2016 14:28:00 +0000http://www.progtown.com/post39091766.html#p39091766<![CDATA[Re: Mathematics vs computer science]]>
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Hello, Evgeny. Panasyuk, you wrote: EP> Are engaged, including mathematics. All question in what share of this most "including". By experience I will tell that the scanty. And this mathematics let not , but it is exact not level. Including it is necessary not to forget to eat yet. So now, we will absolutize food intake?]]>Mon, 19 Dec 2016 14:00:00 +0000http://www.progtown.com/post39091765.html#p39091765<![CDATA[Re: Mathematics vs computer science]]>
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Hello, Voblin, you wrote: EP>> data structures - too mathematics... V> we Take for an example database designing. We take the functional requirements and it is transformed them into a dial-up of entities and communications. There is there a mathematics? Somewhere there in depth, of course, yes, but it is is specific at the moment of designing of basis we it we are not soared at all. We are soared by, whether correctly we understood data domain. And it any more mathematics, and accounts department, office-work and other "lyrics". Also we are still soared by that to us the potential user forgot to tell. It too not the mathematics, and is faster psychology. We imagine crowd mentally not outstanding users and we try to estimate, as the system of moves, if instead of a normal use-case in their heads in the image any perversion. It too not the mathematics, and is faster social psychology. Especially that its section in which the broken windows are studied. V> Yes, the database structure is a technical application of predicate calculus, which unambiguously mathematics. But at designing of structure we at all are not engaged in this mathematics. We are engaged in everything, but only not mathematics. Are engaged, including mathematics. If to be able to think only of users - that is banal it turns out nothing - besides it it is necessary also to understand as it is all mechanically works, what mechanical glue all it communicates, to be able to apply and change all this abstract mechanics. That who thinks ONLY of users and "other office-work" is a customer, instead of the engineer or the designer. Even if not to know mathematical terms, and to name and use all these small screws and somehow in own way, intuitively - that it all the same the mathematician - rigid, abstract, mechanical system. Addition does not cease to be addition from that that adding does not know this word.]]>Mon, 19 Dec 2016 13:02:00 +0000http://www.progtown.com/post39091764.html#p39091764<![CDATA[Re: Mathematics vs computer science]]>
http://www.progtown.com/post39091763.html#p39091763
Hello, Evgeny. Panasyuk, you wrote: EP> data structures - too mathematics... We Take for an example database designing. We take the functional requirements and it is transformed them into a dial-up of entities and communications. There is there a mathematics? Somewhere there in depth, of course, yes, but it is is specific at the moment of designing of basis we it we are not soared at all. We are soared by, whether correctly we understood data domain. And it any more mathematics, and accounts department, office-work and other "lyrics". Also we are still soared by that to us the potential user forgot to tell. It too not the mathematics, and is faster psychology. We imagine crowd mentally not outstanding users and we try to estimate, as the system of moves, if instead of a normal use-case in their heads in the image any perversion. It too not the mathematics, and is faster social psychology. Especially that its section in which the broken windows are studied. Yes, the database structure is a technical application of predicate calculus, which unambiguously mathematics. But at designing of structure we at all are not engaged in this mathematics. We are engaged in everything, but only not mathematics.]]>Mon, 19 Dec 2016 12:28:00 +0000http://www.progtown.com/post39091763.html#p39091763<![CDATA[Re: Mathematics vs computer science]]>
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Hello, Evgeny. Panasyuk, you wrote: EP> For some reason permanently there are attempts to tear off pieces, and even the whole areas of programming from mathematics. The vivid example is announcements about the functional programming and not imperative, based only on that that some code on is close to any known for it from school of the mathematical notation. Though both , and are is exceptional strict systems with is rigid-logical rules - and consequently including are mathematics. I never , but the code on (especially pure, type ) really remind a floor-mat. The proof. Not the notation, and the proof scheme. I.e. the code . Itself(himself) the proof of a certain problem-theorem, therefore it so pleased to mathematicians. From mathematicians for mathematicians. During too time the code line on imperative language can launch the rocket on , i.e. are present side-effect'y. On the other hand, all calculations (program) for the sake of these side-effect'ov also are written. Therefore already which ten years without special success storms minds of programmers.]]>Mon, 19 Dec 2016 11:20:00 +0000http://www.progtown.com/post39091762.html#p39091762<![CDATA[Re: Mathematics vs computer science]]>
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Hello, Sharov, you wrote: EP>> Excites including. EP>> Alexander Stepanov once made comments on this thesis (attempt to dissolve mathematics and computre science on the basis of interest to cost of operations) - 1:04:22 AM - https://youtu.be/Ih9gpJga4Vc? t=3862 S> I just above this thesis also resulted (from this lecture), only in the opposite direction. Yes, there the same citation is used. Only I referred to the moment hardly earlier - there in reply to the thesis about that that in difference from CS the mathematics does not have concept of the price of operations, Stepans cited as an example the Ancient Greek mathematics where counted a necessary amount of operations with a compasses and a ruler.]]>Mon, 19 Dec 2016 10:40:00 +0000http://www.progtown.com/post39091761.html#p39091761<![CDATA[Re: Mathematics vs computer science]]>
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Hello, Evgeny. Panasyuk, you wrote: EP> Excites including. EP> Alexander Stepanov once made comments on this thesis (attempt to dissolve mathematics and computre science on the basis of interest to cost of operations) - 1:04:22 AM - https://youtu.be/Ih9gpJga4Vc? t=3862 I just above this thesis also resulted (from this lecture), only in the opposite direction.]]>Mon, 19 Dec 2016 08:39:00 +0000http://www.progtown.com/post39091760.html#p39091760<![CDATA[Re: Mathematics vs computer science]]>
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Hello, pagid, you wrote: P> Then we begin on-new In all already mentioned sciences, disciplines and spheres of activity not less abstract mathematical pieces are used. In everything, since physics and to .. They mathematics are not, but its methods use. Why for programming the exception should be made and it is necessary to consider it as mathematics absolutely not clearly. I like accurately told that I consider also physics and . as applied mathematics P>> Then also to the physicist and . it is necessary to consider too . EP> Why it "is necessary"? The applied mathematics in the pure state also is.]]>Sun, 18 Dec 2016 16:30:00 +0000http://www.progtown.com/post39091759.html#p39091759<![CDATA[Re: Mathematics vs computer science]]>
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Hello, Evgeny. Panasyuk, you wrote: EP> I do not confuse. EP> programming is mathematics because the code is mathematical abstraction, even imperative, data structures - too mathematics, process of creation of the code, its properties (let and not absolutely strictly) - mathematical activity. And at all only because somewhere in the code there is any "calculation" a-lja x*2. If it it is not visible, look such abstract mathematical pieces as the machine of Turing, the formal grammar, the graph, Hoare logic etc., etc. Then we begin on-new In all already mentioned sciences, disciplines and spheres of activity not less abstract mathematical pieces are used. In everything, since physics and to .. They mathematics are not, but its methods use. Why for programming the exception should be made and it is necessary to consider it as mathematics absolutely not clearly.... <<RSDN@Home 1.2.0 alpha 5 rev. 1495>>]]>Sun, 18 Dec 2016 16:17:00 +0000http://www.progtown.com/post39091758.html#p39091758<![CDATA[Re: Mathematics vs computer science]]>
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Hello, pagid, you wrote: EP>> Suddenly etymology of a word of the mathematician approximately so it is wide and it is decrypted: P> Simply it is not necessary to confuse "uses" and "is". I do not confuse. P> and yes if the bookkeeper, the physicist or the programmer doing any calculations or mathematical calculations I tells "now I am engaged in mathematics", it will be right, only here from it ., physics or programming by mathematics do not become. Programming is mathematics because the code is mathematical abstraction, even imperative, data structures - too mathematics, process of creation of the code, its properties (let and not absolutely strictly) - mathematical activity. And at all only because somewhere in the code there is any "calculation" a-lja x*2. If it it is not visible, look such abstract mathematical pieces as the machine of Turing, the formal grammar, the graph, Hoare logic etc., etc.]]>Sun, 18 Dec 2016 15:55:00 +0000http://www.progtown.com/post39091757.html#p39091757<![CDATA[Re: Mathematics vs computer science]]>
http://www.progtown.com/post39091756.html#p39091756
Hello, Evgeny. Panasyuk, you wrote: EP> Suddenly etymology of a word of the mathematician approximately so it is wide and it is decrypted: Simply it is not necessary to confuse "uses" and "is". And yes, if the bookkeeper, the physicist or the programmer doing any calculations or mathematical calculations I tells "now I am engaged in mathematics", it will be right, only here from it ., physics or programming by mathematics do not become.... <<RSDN@Home 1.2.0 alpha 5 rev. 1495>>]]>Sun, 18 Dec 2016 14:50:00 +0000http://www.progtown.com/post39091756.html#p39091756<![CDATA[Re: Mathematics vs computer science]]>
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Sun, 18 Dec 2016 14:39:00 +0000http://www.progtown.com/post39091755.html#p39091755<![CDATA[Re: Mathematics vs computer science]]>
http://www.progtown.com/post39091754.html#p39091754
Hello, Evgeny. Panasyuk, you wrote: EP> Why it "is necessary"? The Applied mathematics in the pure state also is. EP> arithmetics applied daily for count of the prices it is conclusive consider as mathematics - than . is worse? Is worse nothing. But then all life - mathematics. And actually it . Used in many sciences, application-oriented disciplines and activity types.... <<RSDN@Home 1.2.0 alpha 5 rev. 1495>>]]>Sun, 18 Dec 2016 13:55:00 +0000http://www.progtown.com/post39091754.html#p39091754<![CDATA[Re: Mathematics vs computer science]]>
http://www.progtown.com/post39091753.html#p39091753
Hello, pagid, you wrote: EP>> About and ballistics I will tell nothing, and here resistance of materials it as a matter of fact applied mathematics - on the basis of hypotheses and assumptions (a hypothesis of plane sections, a principle of Saint-Venant, etc.) is under construction a mathematical model and is researched by mathematical methods ( given functions, Slough, derivative lines beam axes, integrals on sections, tensors of pressure etc., etc.) Further mathematical methods estimate applicability of this model to real systems on the basis of experiments. P> then also to the physicist and . it is necessary to consider too . Why it "is necessary"? The applied mathematics in the pure state also is. Arithmetics applied daily for count of the prices it is conclusive consider as mathematics - than . is worse? Historically it is one of the first areas of application of mathematics, and it is reverse - one of areas from which mathematics grew. Certainly it is possible to argue/philosophize on that how much these application-oriented disciplines were isolated, and whether there is any edge of isolation crossing which discipline ceases to be mathematics is a question of terminology. But I anyway resolutely do not understand those who for some reason names mathematics, but does not award this honor . Or for example considers that in algorithms of the mathematician appears only when to them the asymptotic analysis of complexity is applied, but thus do not consider as mathematics the analysis of an absolute amount of operations and their cost, not to mention the internal device of algorithms. That is here or then all it to consider as mathematics, or anything (with what I do not agree, but it at least internally a consistent position).]]>Sun, 18 Dec 2016 13:38:00 +0000http://www.progtown.com/post39091753.html#p39091753