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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Hello, Sharov, you wrote: S>> From only. A question as well as where to store a state. S> each subject has a state. For example temperature or position in relation to the north. How by means of it to construct the computing system? S>>> here water has a state - hot and cold. How from this to construct the computing system? S>> than hydrodynamic processes differ from . Processes? Well if only physics. S> you not about hydrodynamic processes and about temperature. Or layout of subjects under the relation to each other. S> yes, it is possible to perform simple operations, a maximum the adding machine. But it is a maximum - the computer of the arbitrary complexity you will not make - there should be a gain. The adding machine - here it just and enough! It is necessary to add the counter of commands and a place where to store results previous . CPU - there is a normal calculator with the counter of commands (PC) and registers. All! Further on this business  all remaining also is had that is had () S>> Possibly I not so well understood written by you above but as in same semi-conductor environment from 1 to receive 0 if "and switched has capacity more switching". S> means that the signal should not fade. By the way, it is possible to consider as the undamped signal oscillator in cpu? S> Roughly speaking, on a transistor lock the smaller current for discovery moves, than then can provide opened . I am not assured, what exactly so semiconductors (recently handed over 6.002 on edx, but could forget partially) work. And yes, absence of a signal - too a signal.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Sharov, you wrote: S> the Adding machine - here it just and enough! It is necessary to add the counter of commands and a place where to store results previous . CPU - there is a normal calculator with the counter of commands (PC) and registers. All! Further on this business  all remaining also is had that is had (it does not turn out. All problem in that that gears absorb a signal, but do not strengthen. You can pull a hand system, say, from 100 gears. And all - to increase does not quit more - does not withstand a material even if will twist the pen  the powerful engine. This conceptual property - if an element does not strengthen a signal, there is an attenuation - that the computing system of the arbitrary complexity of it not to construct. S>> Means that the signal should not fade. S> by the way, it is possible to consider as the undamped signal oscillator in cpu? You did not understand about what speech. In the adding machine you twist one gear, it transmits a signal another. It is more than hundred connected sequentially - cannot twist, force of a friction rises. And gain of a signal is not present. That's all - arrived. And from the relay it is possible to collect system of the arbitrary complexity - the relay strengthens a signal in hundreds times. The relay is controlled by a current 0.1 And, and switches a current 10  S>> Roughly speaking, on a transistor lock the smaller current for discovery moves, than then can provide opened . S> I am not assured, what exactly so semiconductors (recently handed over 6.002 on edx, but could forget partially) work. And yes, absence of a signal - too a signal. In it and the gain essence, only such mechanism suits creation of computing systems. In a brain of the person neurons too strengthen a signal - differently in any way. Mandatory property of a computing cell signal gain.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Hello, Sharov, you wrote: S>> the Adding machine - here it just and enough! It is necessary to add the counter of commands and a place where to store results previous . CPU - there is a normal calculator with the counter of commands (PC) and registers. All! Further on this business  all remaining also is had that is had (S> it does not turn out. All problem in that that gears absorb a signal, but do not strengthen. S> you can pull a hand system, say, from 100 gears. And all - to increase does not quit more - does not withstand a material even if will twist the pen  the powerful engine. S> this conceptual property - if the element does not strengthen a signal, there is an attenuation - that the computing system of the arbitrary complexity of it not to construct. We say about different things - I that the processor (calculator) it is possible to make from  and sticks, you that the signal fades. We do not contradict each other for if to pull out a force cable from the PC, no calculation will exist. The signal should be. But it cannot amplify all time! Will be big women. As from the Universe if to trust the modern theory. S>>> Means that the signal should not fade. S>> by the way, it is possible to consider as the undamped signal oscillator in cpu? S> you did not understand about what speech. In the adding machine you twist one gear, it transmits a signal another. It is more than hundred connected sequentially - cannot twist, force of a friction rises. And gain of a signal is not present. That's all - arrived. All right, to machine Bebbidzha of claims is not present. Already well. S> and from the relay it is possible to collect system of the arbitrary complexity - the relay strengthens a signal in hundreds times. The relay is controlled by a current 0.1 And, and switches a current 10 A.Zdraste. From relay machines left with the invention . Well i.e. I understand about what speech, there the same effect, only on mikro-nano level. But the signal should fade. To me it is thought that your setting of a question is reduced to the perpetuum mobile invention - the undamped signal. S>>> roughly speaking, on a transistor lock the smaller current for discovery moves, than then can provide opened . S>> I am not assured, what exactly so semiconductors (recently handed over 6.002 on edx, but could forget partially) work. And yes, absence of a signal - too a signal. S> in it and the gain essence, only such mechanism suits creation of computing systems. S> in a brain of the person neurons too strengthen a signal - differently in any way. S> Mandatory property of a computing cell signal gain. Signal saving.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Sharov, you wrote: S>> And from the relay it is possible to collect system of the arbitrary complexity - the relay strengthens a signal in hundreds times. The relay is controlled by a current 0.1 And, and switches a current 10  S> Zdraste. From relay machines left with the invention . Well i.e. I understand about what speech, there the same effect, only on mikro-nano level. But the signal should fade. To me it is thought that your setting of a question is reduced to the perpetuum mobile invention - the undamped signal. Left, because on chips is cheaper and more compact. And here restrictions on the relay are not present. On gears of restriction in the absence of signal gain. On hydraulic valves - in doubt. It can and is possible. S> signal Saving. Without gain a signal not to save. After all stray attenuations are inevitable (for any types of systems).

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> you can pull a hand system, say, from 100 gears. And all - to increase does not quit more - does not withstand a material even if will twist the pen  the powerful engine. Without insults but to make any statements, without understanding at all in  is the full item it is not necessary so to do. The help from a XVII-th century: the trigger mechanism + any exterior drive,  - gravitation or a spring. From the XX-th century: the reducer-amplifier, was used from tractors and elevating easels and to autopilots and differential analyzers. Well , gears -  are not pleasant.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> What there should be a valve device that it was controlled by water and thus did not add a time delay (it is selected in the text), Switching elements without time delays do not exist. Your K.O.hydraulic computers quite to themselves worked several decades ago.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Sinix, you wrote: S> Well , gears -  are not pleasant. You can abstract and tell what principle allows to strengthen a signal in mechanical and hydraulic systems?

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S>> Well , gears -  are not pleasant. S> you can abstract and tell what principle allows to strengthen a signal in mechanical and hydraulic systems? I am finite I can, but it will be  in its worst display. The help: what exchanges if to compensate mechanical/thermodynamic losses at a signal transmission?

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> That's just the point - stopping up cork! But after all controlling force are circular motions of a lamb, instead of cork pushing. You would try to press manually cork - anything it would not turn out. Circular motions - it is completely not mandatory. It is possible to use the lever and then all motions will be approximately parallel. S> think: what principle allows to control by means of smaller force  force? What is the general at all such systems? Yes understand you, force not so is interesting, as capacity. Small force will easily be transformed in big by a heap of different methods. The main counter of the amplifier that in it an energetic flow of low power (for example, the microcontroller,  3.3V) controls a flow of the big capacity (for example, an arrow of the elevating easel). And to capacities the concept "orthogonality" is inapplicable. Capacity - scalar value. Not the vectorial!!!

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Sinix, you wrote: S> I am finite I can, but it will be  in its worst display. Why at once so? S> the Help: what exchanges if to compensate mechanical/thermodynamic losses at a signal transmission? And how to compensate without signal gain?

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Voblin, you wrote: V> Circular motions - it is completely not mandatory. It is possible to use the lever and then all motions will be approximately parallel. , let's present that you made a control item on the lever. How it is arranged? The cylinder is filled with water, lifts the piston, the piston presses on the dampfer. So? Then the Dampfer opens or closed, water quits and arrives in the following element. So? V> Yes understand you, force not so is interesting, as capacity. Small force will easily be transformed in big by a heap of different methods. The main counter of the amplifier that in it an energetic flow of low power (for example, the microcontroller,  3.3V) controls a flow of the big capacity (for example, an arrow of the elevating easel). Truly, I initially also wrote about capacity, gain of capacity of a signal. V> and to capacities the concept "orthogonality" is inapplicable. Capacity - scalar value. Not the vectorial!!! You that can tell what physical principle allow a low power signal to control a signal of the big capacity?

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

S> Think that if to connect 2-3 thousand such elements - mass  there will be some tons. And all capacity on a raising  without gain should be provided with muscular force. Threads simply  even if you can provide capacity of an initial signal (for example for threads will pull some tens persons).... Some tons... Muscular force... Tens persons... Threads will be torn... It is all really there were objections on possibility of creation of similar system? And all these "should"? To whom should? Why should? If you raise at basic property of the computing system - that on that it and basic that no restrictions not concerning immediately calculations on its applicability are present and cannot be. Whence restriction on muscular force? Give it it is applicable also to your transistor! I on threads and  we admit the 4-bit adder on muscular force to a smog . And you can apply muscular force to the transistors to receive the operating adder? Without generators everyone there, that all on the fair! And even in spite of the fact that above, you write that: S> On it signal gain is an indispensable condition for a computing element of which it is possible to construct the machine of the given complexity. You think wrote "on it" means proved? How? How it is possible to come to it? Why we do not come to a conclusion that  is necessary less, threads are more strong, and force not the muscular? But even if it and is mandatory, the amplifier on threads invented B.C., the unit is called. And generally - in  calculators on local units collect. And they quite to themselves consider. And transistors emulating operation of the world of game  do not know about that that there something is considered. It turns out that with basic property of the calculator at us generally a problem - it can not exist at all in the physical world, and to itself quite calculate.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Hello, Sinix, you wrote: S>> Well , gears -  are not pleasant. S> you can abstract and tell what principle allows to strengthen a signal in mechanical and hydraulic systems? In the amplifier the feeble signal controls level of the strong signal (the power supply, the pump and ). If to accept that any action is equal to counteraction gain is not possible, and it is. Means in the amplifier there should be a physical process possessing gated properties, . to transmit a signal in one side with small attenuation, and in reverse - with big. Thanks to it the feeble source of a signal manages to drive level of the strong signal. As that so...

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Ok, let's present that you made a control item on the lever. How it is arranged? The cylinder is filled with water, lifts the piston, the piston presses on the dampfer. So? Then the Dampfer opens or closed, water quits and arrives in the following element. So? Aha. S> you that can tell what physical principle allow a low power signal to control a signal of the big capacity? Many different variants. That is is specific you mean, I not undertake to guess.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Qulac, you wrote:>>, . to transmit a signal in one side with small attenuation, and in reverse - with big. Thanks to it the feeble source of a signal manages to drive level of the strong signal. As that so... It agree, with the easel a good example, in a case with  pressure of water upon an end face of the thin dampfer does not suffice for overcoming of force of a friction and a car of discovery of the easel. Generally the amplifier can be both purely mechanical and hydraulic, and gain becomes in all cases at the expense of an exterior source, that is the energy conservation law in force.  dispute left somewhere aside. On mine there is no basic difference between the relay, the easel and mechanical amplifiers. A word gain unsuccessful (switching of energetic flows by other less powerful energetic flows is better) - yes, the link was on , calculations with roundings off, are irreversible, warmly, losses, all there in  are, exact values of losses at calculations at a rounding off on 1 bit. All means correctly in system should energy differently attenuation is imported and all rises though heats up. The reason - irreversibility of calculations, information loss leads to heat selection outside. It is necessary to compensate these losses. But dispute was after all not about it... Like...? Well replace a word gain on  energetic flows, with switching or control of more powerful flows of more feeble and .

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

And generally it is worthy surprise as overwriting of mathematical abstraction of 1 bit or information loss conducts to real heating up in the real world. Impresses! The mathematics turns out it is a reality! Instead of ...

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Here for all the electromagnetic relay is more less clear. Coil-electromagnet and contacts which at current submission incorporate or disconnected. This element in itself computing, a minimum computing cell. S> what its main property? Reliability and energy consumption. S> about the same basic property at logical elements on transistors: they switch a signal and are switched by a signal, and switched has capacity more than the switching. Mandatory. And if such property is found out is an element can become computing system master cell. At sufficient reliability can. S> on idea the neuron, a basic element of reason, too should possess these properties of a computing element. So? Low reliability. S> but what is a minimum computing element? How at level of the elementary particles to make a computing element? Quantum computers just about reliability also stumble. For example, for the sizes of the modern transistors limiting is kol-in holes in passage - at the small sizes kol-in holes a little in view of their small density reached through only turn alloying (impurity), total reliability of actuating is small. Already 90 process used so-called intense silicon for magnification of density of holes in p-area (there at the same time there is a conductivity improving in n-area, but it to reduction of the size of process not so in essence). Still : http://www.studfiles.ru/preview/4441682/

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> Reliability and energy consumption. That is  a delay thrust in the power supply - already the computing element and on the basis of such elements can be made the computer? It is reliable and consumes energy. You a little bit think that write. At least a little bit.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> That is  a delay thrust in the power supply - already the computing element and on the basis of such elements can be made the computer? It is reliable and consumes energy. I do not see reliability on unit of calculations. S> you a little bit think that write. At least a little bit. In a garden.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> I do not see reliability on unit of calculations. The nihromovaja wire at all is not a computing element. About it and speech. You tell about reliability, but it already other question. I suggested to select those properties which allocate the material object with possibility to calculate. Examples resulted here - the electromagnetic relays controlled hydraulics of the valve, transistors, radio tubes. That allows these objects to be able to switch the information that is to work as calculators. Attempt was to find the general principle. One of principles - control  capacity by means of smaller capacity. If such property at an element is - means from it it is possible to construct a computing element.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: V>> I do not see reliability on unit of calculations. S> Nihromovaja the wire at all is not a computing element. About it and speech. Generally,  the delay quite to itself is a popular computing element if it correctly to thrust. Simply you suggested the strange circuit of "calculator" - to thrust it simply in the power supply. S> you tell about reliability, but it already other question. There is no it the first question, when speech about calculators. Analog calculators just on resistive delays also were under construction, showing wonderful high-speed performance - on orders faster the fastest computers of the sample of 70th years of the last century. And all problem of analog calculators - in reliability of calculations. For analog computers this reliability described dependence of an error on dispersion of temperature, pressure, humidity etc. S> I suggested to select those properties which allocate the material object with possibility to calculate. And I suggested to select what do calculations practically-suitable. Because calculators it is possible to construct almost on any known physical principles. I.e., your question should be set on the contrary - and whether you can enumerate the physical phenomena on which it is impossible to produce calculations?) ) Here put only behind interpretation of results of calculations. For example, the binary logic had development exceptional and only because of reliable interpretation logical 0-lja and logical 1-tsy. S> Examples resulted here - the electromagnetic relays controlled hydraulics of the valve, transistors, radio tubes. That allows these objects to be able to switch the information that is to work as calculators. Attempt was to find the general principle. I told - reliability of interpretation of results of calculations. Another "the general principle" it can not be basic.  for . S> One of principles - control  capacity by means of smaller capacity. Absolutely not mandatory. The computing element is not obliged to strengthen a signal on capacity. S> if such property at an element is - means from it it is possible to construct a computing element. Here it is a high time for you to familiarize with the modern optical calculators. In them the lion's part of operations happens to loss of initial capacity.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> the Principal condition: that from these elements it was possible to collect  the machine of the given complexity. I.e. 2-3 elements to connect is one. And you try to connect 2-3 thousand such elements that they interacted.  - plates break, as they do not strengthen a signal. There should be a signal gain, differently leads to attenuation. Yes nonsense all it.)) whether the individual linear amplifier the calculator Is? , hardly,  on the linear amplifier it is possible to produce only one operation - multiplication to a constant that as  it is at all uninteresting. But such linear amplifier can be placed lengthways on the pipeline of calculations in the form of "repeater" for pump of all circuit by energy.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Logically we can divide them. Two different words: the amplifier and the calculator. But in material most likely it appears that they are indivisible. That is that can strengthen all - can and calculate. If the amplifier proportional - it cannot calculate on-definition. Such amplifier does not create the new information. It seems, I start to understand, what exactly you try to ask. , there is such concept, as linearity. For example, the resistor - quite to itself the linear element if to take for result of calculations on it a current from pressure. In this case there will be no calculations (on the individual resistor). But if to measure capacity dispersed on the resistor we receive the circuit of exponentation of pressure in a square. And it already very much even the calculator. Further. We take yours  a delay. At it resistance depends on temperature. On such delay it is possible to collect the calculator of levels, smaller the first. The signal delimiter on top gives us an element OR. The threshold device gives us an element And. The linear drive "something" from time gives us integral f-ii it "something" from time. Etc. Karoch, the calculator should generate the new information, and what-thread non-linear conversion of the available information for this purpose is required. For example, the neuron mentioned by you has non-linear sigma-function is and there is calculator "heart" on neurons. Huge kol-in the physical phenomena generate the new information (nearby already wrote about it), therefore are theoretically suitable to be a basis for calculations. Speech about interpretation of this information - such as, I will repeat, a transiting current or capacity dispersed on the resistor.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> you that can tell what physical principle allow a low power signal to control a signal of the big capacity? And what does not allow?

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> For example, the resistor - quite to itself the linear element if to take for result of calculations on it a current from pressure. In this case there will be no calculations (on the individual resistor). But if to measure capacity dispersed on the resistor we receive the circuit of exponentation of pressure in a square. And it already very much even the calculator. Look. There is at you a resistor. But than you will measure capacity dispersed? It does not turn out any more without . An element. So? Means on one resistor not to collect - it is necessary still . An element. What? Speech about the finished element of which set it is possible to build arbitrary computing system., For example, it is possible to build of electromagnetic relays without . Elements. V> further. We take yours  a delay. At it resistance depends on temperature. On such delay it is possible to collect the calculator of levels, smaller the first. Besides - that is required to you more many, the delay will be only a part system. V> the signal Delimiter on top gives us an element OR. V> the Threshold device gives us I.Vyshe's element I explained about logical elements on threads and  - from them the computing system not to collect.