#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: S>> you that can tell what physical principle allow a low power signal to control a signal of the big capacity? V> and what does not allow? Well here to you an example. There is a pipe from which water under a pressure leaks. To cork this pipe - it is required not hefty . And here hang a valve - can close and the child. Why directly cork it is difficult to close and  it is easy? To construct the computing system on the water, one flow should switch another. But thus capacity should not rise (that is more feeble signal it is necessary to switch stronger).

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Well here to you an example. There is a pipe from which water under a pressure leaks. To cork this pipe - it is required not hefty . And here hang a valve - can close and the child. S> why directly cork it is difficult to close and  it is easy? A lever rule, not?) ) Simply it is not necessary to confuse force and operation. At the similar "direct" lever it will be simple to close and cork. Besides, you there too correctly told in a direction "orthogonalities of a vector" - a cosine of the angle it such, yes. But orthogonality too not an indispensable condition, and only a part possible (and that not always) . All depends on the specific involved physical processes. Or, for example, if we have to calculate  no "orthogonality" in mechanical system will exist, the EC th. S> to construct the computing system on the water, one flow should switch another. There is a speech about binary numeration, that is a heap of the literature and even is simple  about bases of binary numerations.) ) The base should be full, but can be superfluous. It can be easily implementable almost sticks, water, gears, pocket mirrors etc. (in base of a polynomial of Zhegalkina, for example). Is f-ii saving a zero, saving unit etc., implemented  in the image in the mechanic, participating in creation of the majority of known bases of binary numeration. , "base" generally is more than one f-ii. Bases 2I-NOT and 2ILI-NOT is, more likely, an exception when one f-ija makes base (satisfies to so-called criteria of the Post). S> But thus capacity should not rise (that is more feeble signal it is necessary to switch stronger). This artificial restriction invented by you and it absolutely any side to the considered. Forget about this direction of reasonings - it confuses you, obviously.) ) For example, capacity in the mentioned water circuit can be regulated a relative positioning of "valves". The more the difference on height, the will be a difference of pressure more. Through this difference it is possible to compensate appropriate losses on a friction on not which speed of calculations. But particulars of implementation all it only which can be too more than one. For example, instead of a difference of levels it is possible to apply special pumps of swapping the pressure scattered on most loaded "lines". I suggest to separate further flies from cutlets. I.e., arguing "tricks for pump of the circuit by capacity" to space apart in space (well at least paragraphs) with arguings "realizabilities of those or others f th on those or others . The phenomena".

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> a lever Rule, not?) ) V> Simply it is not necessary to confuse force and operation. And here you think. Give on an example of water system. The minimum element with which help it is possible to construct the computing system of the arbitrary complexity looks so: In the free state this element is quitted by water (from an input in an output). If to submit a pressure on a controlling output, water stops a leak. The repeater to make easily - to connect sequentially such 2 elements, connecting to a controlling branch pipe of the second an output of the first (the first will be quitted by a pressure and closes the second element). If it is not clear, I can collect to you from these elements And, OR and so forth logical elements. Any. And so. Let's think that in this element? When you submit a pressure on an input, the dampfer should be closed. How it can be made? You are right - it is possible to make the lever. I thought concerning it. That is at the same pressure of water in the system, the entering flow will switch proceeding at the expense of the lever. But here the problem arises - the lever adds a time delay of speed (while longer shoulder of the lever (or  on volume the tank, in a case with the hydraulic lever) will be moved). This time delay will rise in times with each new element. A key problem: the lever gives  in force (and possibility to close the dampfer) is strictly proportional to a time delay of speed. And it can be an insuperable problem of falling of speed of system in geometrical progression. But there is also a circuit without the lever: It has no such proportion. In what the singularity of this circuit, what principle allows it to switch flows? Actually, your circuit with the lever reminds the mechanical computing system. In the theory you we can increase speed of a controlling signal, but in practice there are restrictions. V> besides, you there too correctly told in a direction "orthogonalities of a vector" - a cosine of the angle it such, yes. But orthogonality too not an indispensable condition, and only a part possible (and that not always) . All depends on the specific involved physical processes. Or, for example, if we have to calculate  no "orthogonality" in mechanical system will exist, the EC th. Think it is possible to construct difficult system on the basis of the lever? V> the base should be full, but can be superfluous. It can be easily implementable almost sticks, water, gears, pocket mirrors etc. (in base of a polynomial of Zhegalkina, for example). V> Is f-ii saving a zero, saving unit etc., implemented  in the image in the mechanic, participating in creation of the majority of known bases of binary numeration. , "base" generally is more than one f-ii. Bases 2I-NOT and 2ILI-NOT is, more likely, an exception when one f-ija makes base (satisfies to so-called criteria of the Post). We assorted sticks above - it is impossible to construct system. There is no signal gain. Such initial force is required that threads will be torn. V> this artificial restriction invented by you and it absolutely any side to the considered. Forget about this direction of reasonings - it confuses you, obviously.) ) Just is not present, this condition basic. You simply do not construct system if the signal fades with each new element. V> for example, capacity in the mentioned water circuit can be regulated a relative positioning of "valves". The more the difference on height, the will be a difference of pressure more. In what system? The water system that goes with gain, with it problems are not present. V> Through this difference it is possible to compensate appropriate losses on a friction on not which speed of calculations. But particulars of implementation all it only which can be too more than one. For example, instead of a difference of levels it is possible to apply special pumps of swapping the pressure scattered on most loaded "lines". Where you will put pumps and how them to switch (during what moment to include)?

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> You after all too not in a state simple sight to see neither a logical zero, nor logical one in a cable or on a chip foot. The most complicated instrument - the transformer of the binary information in digestible representation for your sense organs is necessary to you. In a case with a delay - you cannot collect from it the arbitrary computing system. Look my answer more low on the relay. V> well you set the task, and I will think. V> because now the right answer will be 42.)) to Make on  elements logical "And". S>>, for example, it is possible to build Of electromagnetic relays without . Elements. V> it is impossible. In special way connected explorers are necessary still. Actually, all depends on the connecting circuit of these explorers hardly more, than.) ) Conductings, that is connections of elements are necessary, thought that it needless to say. But except  more should be nothing, the element should be self-sufficient. V> but also it it is not enough. If all relays work only on closing they will not make base and you on them will not count anything. For base it will be necessary to add still the relay variety, working on a breaking. Well or at once to take throw-over relays, as the most general-purpose, y-y-y. Relays work on a breaking. That is contact, under it the coil. Submit a current on the coil - contact is disconnected. From this element it is possible to collect systems of the arbitrary complexity, all existing algorithms which can be executed on the normal computer. Enough one this type of elements well and  as you noted. And so a question: what property the element that from it, on similarity of the relay with contacts on a breaking, it was possible to collect the computing system of the arbitrary complexity should possess? Whether there are at all elements of this kind general abstract properties? S>> above I explained about logical elements on threads and  - from them the computing system not to collect. V> the courageous statement! V> and the theoretical substantiation is possible? If there is no gain - that the incoming signal dies away because of a friction. Perhaps it is possible to invent strengthening mechanical element. Yet did not see such.

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> And so a question: what property the element that from it, on similarity of the relay with contacts on a breaking, it was possible to collect the computing system of the arbitrary complexity should possess? I already answered - at first, this element should possess nonlinearity. Secondly, with the complete list of criteria for binary numeration (you the binary logic now interests?) It is possible to familiarize under link already given by me above. Whether S> there are at all elements of this kind general abstract properties? Under the link these sv-va are painted literally on fingers. S>>> above I explained about logical elements on threads and  - from them the computing system not to collect. V>> the courageous statement! V>> and the theoretical substantiation is possible? S> if there is no gain - that the incoming signal dies away because of a friction. Yes for God's sake. Let the signal on an output will possess on orders less capacity, than on an input. I do not see in it any problem. S> perhaps it is possible to invent strengthening mechanical element. Yet did not see such. A steam locomotive?

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> Under the link these sv-va are painted literally on fingers. Well and all the same, if to consider in a foreshortening of the material embodiment. Here the relay, transistors, radio tubes - that in them the general? After all serious computers formed only from them. V> Yes for God's sake. Let the signal on an output will possess on orders less capacity, than on an input. I do not see in it any problem. And an example of such element from which collected the computer? The adding machine, probably? S>> Perhaps it is possible to invent strengthening mechanical element. Yet did not see such. V> a steam locomotive? Here you tell a paracart. And can all the same can select a key element in a paracart which produces gain? This element can is basic does not differ from hydraulic, we drew above?

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Here you tell a paracart. And can all the same can select a key element in a paracart which produces gain? This element can is basic does not differ from hydraulic, we drew above? And give I will help:  the Author: Sinix Date: 27.10 09:07 Ok, gears, a pneumatics and liquids are not pleasant?  two. If also it does not approach - hold a little bit chemistries in the acid environment. Well or still that . Well as, all these riches under one comb we will trample down, or all the same we refuse behind obvious uselessness?

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: V>> Under the link these sv-va are painted literally on fingers. S> well and all the same if to consider in a foreshortening of the material embodiment. Similarly. For binary numeration you will not surpass these restrictions in any way, differently banal addition do not implement.) ) S> Here the relay, transistors, radio tubes - that in them the general? After all serious computers formed only from them. In them the general reliability and cheapness in comparison with other technologies, certainly. V>> yes for God's sake. Let the signal on an output will possess on orders less capacity, than on an input. I do not see in it any problem. S> and an example of such element from which collected the computer? The adding machine, probably? The optical processor approaches? On an output the signal is weakened, amplifies the already especially electrical circuit and so on a circle. However, to you at once wrote about possibility to strengthen a signal on Not-computing elements (on certain "repeaters"). S>>> Perhaps it is possible to invent strengthening mechanical element. Yet did not see such. V>> a steam locomotive? S> here you tell a paracart. And can all the same can select a key element in a paracart which produces gain? System the dampfer-cylinder-piston. S> this element Can is basic does not differ from hydraulic, we drew above? And from any another, though electrical, though dinamichesko-mechanical (there were here examples on gears).

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: S>> Well and all the same if to consider in a foreshortening of the material embodiment. V> it is similar. For binary numeration you will not surpass these restrictions in any way, differently banal addition do not implement.) ) The question was about the material embodiment. Here, we defined the most simple binary element are a relay with contacts on a breaking. So? From it it is possible to create all difficult logical elements, to fulfill any calculations. So? What such especial in the relay with contacts on a breaking, what it is possible to construct the computing system of it? There the lever principle is used or still any physical phenomenon which not probably to replace? S>> here the relay, transistors, radio tubes - that in them the general? After all serious computers formed only from them. V> In them the general reliability and cheapness in comparison with other technologies, certainly. And a physical principle if not to take in attention a price question? What for a physical principle allows them to be computing elements? After all of one only condensers or resistors the computer to make it does not turn out, so? V> the Optical processor approaches? V> Image: pic2.jpg It is an element or the finished system? We speak about an element. Whether you can select a basic computing element of this system. V> on an output the signal is weakened, amplifies the already especially electrical circuit and so on a circle. V> however, you at once wrote about possibility to strengthen a signal on Not-computing elements (on certain "repeaters"). Well. Only for creation of the computer you will need to add to computing elements repeaters. From gain not to leave anywhere. V> system the dampfer-cylinder-piston. Very well. And what main  the phenomena help this system to become the calculator? Why the dampfer-tsilndr-piston can transform the information and a wheel is not present? S>> this element Can is basic does not differ from hydraulic, we drew above? V> and from any another, though electrical, though dinamichesko-mechanical (there were here examples on gears). But nevertheless, in a hydraulic control item, here in it: too is both the cylinder and the dampfer and even the piston. That such magic in the cylinder and the dampfer, what without them it is impossible to fulfill calculations?

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> Karoch, the calculator should generate the new information, and what-thread non-linear conversion of the available information for this purpose is required. And it is possible . To justify? It is sick interesting.

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Sharov, you wrote: S> Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V>> Karoch, the calculator should generate the new information, and what-thread non-linear conversion of the available information for this purpose is required. S> and it is possible . To justify? It is sick interesting. I all wait, when condemnation will be included into a channel "that there is an information". Already more close. Generally would be more correct to tell to derive the information or to transform, instead of to create the new. In the information on a quadratic equation already there are its roots. Solving the equation, we derive this information.

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Sharov, you wrote: V>> Karoch, the calculator should generate the new information, and what-thread non-linear conversion of the available information for this purpose is required. S> and it is possible . To justify? It is sick interesting. To justify an axiom?)) non-linear conversions are such at which the superposition principle is not observed, i.e. F (x+y) is not equal F (x) + F (y). Until the superposition principle is observed, the information amount does not change. All. Justified.

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Qulac, you wrote: S>> And it is possible . To justify? It is sick interesting. Q> I all wait, when condemnation will be included into a channel "that there is an information". Already more close. Generally would be more correct to tell to derive the information or to transform, instead of to create the new. In the information on a quadratic equation already there are its roots. Solving the equation, we derive this information. , no. The information amount is the relative value. It is obvious that the system in which are encoded (what or image) both an input equation, and its roots, possesses big kol-vom information, than system where the input equation is encoded only. At least it is more on value about such information: "the circuit finds equation roots".

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Qulac, you wrote: S>> And it is possible . To justify? It is sick interesting. Q> I all wait, when condemnation will be included into a channel "that there is an information". Already more close. Generally would be more correct to tell to derive the information or to transform, instead of to create the new. In the information on a quadratic equation already there are its roots. In linear too there are roots, and always. Also what?

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> Hello, Qulac, you wrote: S>>> And it is possible . To justify? It is sick interesting. Q>> I all wait, when condemnation will be included into a channel "that there is an information". Already more close. Generally would be more correct to tell to derive the information or to transform, instead of to create the new. In the information on a quadratic equation already there are its roots. Solving the equation, we derive this information. V> , no. The information amount is the relative value. It is obvious that the system in which are encoded (what or image) both an input equation, and its roots, possesses big kol-vom information, than system where the input equation is encoded only. At least it is more on value about such information: "the circuit finds equation roots". Correctly, rather and much depends on from what belltower at it to look. The algorithm of the decision of the equation too is the information.

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Sharov, you wrote: S> Hello, Qulac, you wrote: S>>> And it is possible . To justify? It is sick interesting. Q>> I all wait, when condemnation will be included into a channel "that there is an information". Already more close. Generally would be more correct to tell to derive the information or to transform, instead of to create the new. In the information on a quadratic equation already there are its roots. S> in linear too there are roots, and always. Also what? I it to that all rests that there is for us an essential information in this case as there is no information out of our consciousness. Without this calculation are useless, and physical implementation approaches that which provides the accuracy necessary to us and cost. And all. Any physical process about which something is known to us, it is possible to use as the calculator.

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Qulac, you wrote: Q> it is correct, rather and much depends on from what belltower at it to look. In a macrocosm differently in any way.)) Even in the quantum world it is possible to judge "the full information of system" (a so-called pure state of system) only with some probability which is considered as superposition wave f th. An uncertainty principle - it the most fundamental, . For this reason in business of calculations reliability is important, and it is now reached by redundancy of those quantum elements in recalculation on information bit. The result of operation of quantum algorithm has probability character. For the account of small magnification of an amount of operations in algorithm it is possible to approach as is wished probability of obtaining of the correct result to unit. For example, the bipolar transistor is too the quantum calculator. Reliability of operation of such transistor is reached big kol-vom simultaneously (parallely) participating charged particles (electrons/holes).

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> What minimum property the material body that it was possible to name it a computing element should possess and to form of it computing systems? If seriously attended to this point in question look Feynman - Feynman Lectures On Computation. I did not read, but many answers to the questions on the given subjects is thought you find. For it is reasonings of the physicist on calculation.

#### Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> (Including the maximum patience for the infinite repetition same) V> No especial physical principle here is present. The principle here especially mathematical, namely - certain non-linear f-ija allows to construct on its basis base binary numeration. Did not want to prompt, but it is fine. Look that the general at the relay, transistors, radio tubes: Roughly: 1. There is a controlling output. At the relay it is a coil output, at a lamp - a grid, at the transistor - basis (for bipolar) or a lock (for field). At the relay the coil has 2 outputs, and at lamps and transistors the second output is as though connected to an input electrode. 2. There is an input electrode mandatory. 3. There is an output electrode mandatory. Is hardly deeper: 1. The input signal which moves on a controlling electrode, has smaller capacity than a switched output signal. And the most interesting. There is a certain clever barrier. For example in the relay is a layer of air between contacts when they are opened. If the environment had lower resistance (for example to ship the relay in an electrolyte) - the relay would not work. Here so - to dissolve contacts on 2 mm and it is possible to guarantee that in between does not transit an electricity (well, of course, with restriction on pressure, volt to 1000). In a lamp there is a barrier in the form of electric field on a grid. Why that this barrier allows to switch the big capacity of a flow of electrons between the cathode and the anode. I already forgot why, to tell the truth. Similarly in the transistor - there is a barrier of the electron-hole conductivity (for bipolar) or a barrier electrostatic (for field). S>> After all of one only condensers or resistors the computer to make it does not turn out, so? V> Analog calculators were under construction on condensers, coils and resistors. The first generation of rockets flied to space on analog computers. Give an example, I do not trust. There except resistors and condensers there should be other "clever" elements to which you did not give value. By the way, into the account of coils - what for you added? There are artful coils enough. Even amplifiers on transformers. Let's coils remove. Without coils on one resistors and condensers of a computer do not collect. It is ready to argue.