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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: S>> you that can tell what physical principle allow a low power signal to control a signal of the big capacity? V> and what does not allow? Well here to you an example. There is a pipe from which water under a pressure leaks. To cork this pipe - it is required not hefty . And here hang a valve - can close and the child. Why directly cork it is difficult to close and  it is easy? To construct the computing system on the water, one flow should switch another. But thus capacity should not rise (that is more feeble signal it is necessary to switch stronger).

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Well here to you an example. There is a pipe from which water under a pressure leaks. To cork this pipe - it is required not hefty . And here hang a valve - can close and the child. S> why directly cork it is difficult to close and  it is easy? A lever rule, not?) ) Simply it is not necessary to confuse force and operation. At the similar "direct" lever it will be simple to close and cork. Besides, you there too correctly told in a direction "orthogonalities of a vector" - a cosine of the angle it such, yes. But orthogonality too not an indispensable condition, and only a part possible (and that not always) . All depends on the specific involved physical processes. Or, for example, if we have to calculate  no "orthogonality" in mechanical system will exist, the EC th. S> to construct the computing system on the water, one flow should switch another. There is a speech about binary numeration, that is a heap of the literature and even is simple  about bases of binary numerations.) ) The base should be full, but can be superfluous. It can be easily implementable almost sticks, water, gears, pocket mirrors etc. (in base of a polynomial of Zhegalkina, for example). Is f-ii saving a zero, saving unit etc., implemented  in the image in the mechanic, participating in creation of the majority of known bases of binary numeration. , "base" generally is more than one f-ii. Bases 2I-NOT and 2ILI-NOT is, more likely, an exception when one f-ija makes base (satisfies to so-called criteria of the Post). S> But thus capacity should not rise (that is more feeble signal it is necessary to switch stronger). This artificial restriction invented by you and it absolutely any side to the considered. Forget about this direction of reasonings - it confuses you, obviously.) ) For example, capacity in the mentioned water circuit can be regulated a relative positioning of "valves". The more the difference on height, the will be a difference of pressure more. Through this difference it is possible to compensate appropriate losses on a friction on not which speed of calculations. But particulars of implementation all it only which can be too more than one. For example, instead of a difference of levels it is possible to apply special pumps of swapping the pressure scattered on most loaded "lines". I suggest to separate further flies from cutlets. I.e., arguing "tricks for pump of the circuit by capacity" to space apart in space (well at least paragraphs) with arguings "realizabilities of those or others f th on those or others . The phenomena".

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Look. There is at you a resistor. But than you will measure capacity dispersed? It does not turn out any more without . An element. So? I to you told at once that speech always goes about interpretation of physical values and reliability of such interpretation. You after all too not in a state simple sight to see neither a logical zero, nor logical one in a cable or on a chip foot. The most complicated instrument - the transformer of the binary information in digestible representation for your sense organs is necessary to you. S> means on one resistor not to collect - it is necessary still . An element. What? Well you set the task, and I will think. Because now the right answer will be 42.) ) S> Speech about the finished element of which set it is possible to build arbitrary computing system. ... Knowingly I here went to bat: http://www.rsdn.org/forum/philosophy/6597199.1 to Read the paragraph about bases of binary calculations. The binary base can consist from several f th. If speech about analog calculations there in base there is an addition, multiplication/division, integirovanie/differentiation, sedate a f-f/logarithm. From each pair through a slash it is possible to select something one, and another to implement through back coupling. S>, for example, it is possible to build of electromagnetic relays without . Elements. It is impossible. In special way connected explorers are necessary still. Actually, all depends on the connecting circuit of these explorers hardly more, than.) ) But also it is not enough of it. If all relays work only on closing they will not make base and you on them will not count anything. For base it will be necessary to add still the relay variety, working on a breaking. Well or at once to take throw-over relays, as the most general-purpose, y-y-y. V>> Further. We take yours  a delay. At it resistance depends on temperature. On such delay it is possible to collect the calculator of levels, smaller the first. S> besides - that is required to you more many, the delay will be only a part system. It always so, it is possible to start to get used.)) V>> the signal delimiter on top gives us an element OR. V>> the Threshold device gives us element  S> Above I explained about logical elements on threads and  - from them the computing system not to collect. The courageous statement! And the theoretical substantiation is possible? I suggest not to hurry up (for the sake of reduction of useless Ping-Pong). I suggest to consider further here in these terms.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> a lever Rule, not?) ) V> Simply it is not necessary to confuse force and operation. And here you think. Give on an example of water system. The minimum element with which help it is possible to construct the computing system of the arbitrary complexity looks so: In the free state this element is quitted by water (from an input in an output). If to submit a pressure on a controlling output, water stops a leak. The repeater to make easily - to connect sequentially such 2 elements, connecting to a controlling branch pipe of the second an output of the first (the first will be quitted by a pressure and closes the second element). If it is not clear, I can collect to you from these elements And, OR and so forth logical elements. Any. And so. Let's think that in this element? When you submit a pressure on an input, the dampfer should be closed. How it can be made? You are right - it is possible to make the lever. I thought concerning it. That is at the same pressure of water in the system, the entering flow will switch proceeding at the expense of the lever. But here the problem arises - the lever adds a time delay of speed (while longer shoulder of the lever (or  on volume the tank, in a case with the hydraulic lever) will be moved). This time delay will rise in times with each new element. A key problem: the lever gives  in force (and possibility to close the dampfer) is strictly proportional to a time delay of speed. And it can be an insuperable problem of falling of speed of system in geometrical progression. But there is also a circuit without the lever: It has no such proportion. In what the singularity of this circuit, what principle allows it to switch flows? Actually, your circuit with the lever reminds the mechanical computing system. In the theory you we can increase speed of a controlling signal, but in practice there are restrictions. V> besides, you there too correctly told in a direction "orthogonalities of a vector" - a cosine of the angle it such, yes. But orthogonality too not an indispensable condition, and only a part possible (and that not always) . All depends on the specific involved physical processes. Or, for example, if we have to calculate  no "orthogonality" in mechanical system will exist, the EC th. Think it is possible to construct difficult system on the basis of the lever? V> the base should be full, but can be superfluous. It can be easily implementable almost sticks, water, gears, pocket mirrors etc. (in base of a polynomial of Zhegalkina, for example). V> Is f-ii saving a zero, saving unit etc., implemented  in the image in the mechanic, participating in creation of the majority of known bases of binary numeration. , "base" generally is more than one f-ii. Bases 2I-NOT and 2ILI-NOT is, more likely, an exception when one f-ija makes base (satisfies to so-called criteria of the Post). We assorted sticks above - it is impossible to construct system. There is no signal gain. Such initial force is required that threads will be torn. V> this artificial restriction invented by you and it absolutely any side to the considered. Forget about this direction of reasonings - it confuses you, obviously.) ) Just is not present, this condition basic. You simply do not construct system if the signal fades with each new element. V> for example, capacity in the mentioned water circuit can be regulated a relative positioning of "valves". The more the difference on height, the will be a difference of pressure more. In what system? The water system that goes with gain, with it problems are not present. V> Through this difference it is possible to compensate appropriate losses on a friction on not which speed of calculations. But particulars of implementation all it only which can be too more than one. For example, instead of a difference of levels it is possible to apply special pumps of swapping the pressure scattered on most loaded "lines". Where you will put pumps and how them to switch (during what moment to include)?

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> You after all too not in a state simple sight to see neither a logical zero, nor logical one in a cable or on a chip foot. The most complicated instrument - the transformer of the binary information in digestible representation for your sense organs is necessary to you. In a case with a delay - you cannot collect from it the arbitrary computing system. Look my answer more low on the relay. V> well you set the task, and I will think. V> because now the right answer will be 42.)) to Make on  elements logical "And". S>>, for example, it is possible to build Of electromagnetic relays without . Elements. V> it is impossible. In special way connected explorers are necessary still. Actually, all depends on the connecting circuit of these explorers hardly more, than.) ) Conductings, that is connections of elements are necessary, thought that it needless to say. But except  more should be nothing, the element should be self-sufficient. V> but also it it is not enough. If all relays work only on closing they will not make base and you on them will not count anything. For base it will be necessary to add still the relay variety, working on a breaking. Well or at once to take throw-over relays, as the most general-purpose, y-y-y. Relays work on a breaking. That is contact, under it the coil. Submit a current on the coil - contact is disconnected. From this element it is possible to collect systems of the arbitrary complexity, all existing algorithms which can be executed on the normal computer. Enough one this type of elements well and  as you noted. And so a question: what property the element that from it, on similarity of the relay with contacts on a breaking, it was possible to collect the computing system of the arbitrary complexity should possess? Whether there are at all elements of this kind general abstract properties? S>> above I explained about logical elements on threads and  - from them the computing system not to collect. V> the courageous statement! V> and the theoretical substantiation is possible? If there is no gain - that the incoming signal dies away because of a friction. Perhaps it is possible to invent strengthening mechanical element. Yet did not see such.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> And so a question: what property the element that from it, on similarity of the relay with contacts on a breaking, it was possible to collect the computing system of the arbitrary complexity should possess? I already answered - at first, this element should possess nonlinearity. Secondly, with the complete list of criteria for binary numeration (you the binary logic now interests?) It is possible to familiarize under link already given by me above. Whether S> there are at all elements of this kind general abstract properties? Under the link these sv-va are painted literally on fingers. S>>> above I explained about logical elements on threads and  - from them the computing system not to collect. V>> the courageous statement! V>> and the theoretical substantiation is possible? S> if there is no gain - that the incoming signal dies away because of a friction. Yes for God's sake. Let the signal on an output will possess on orders less capacity, than on an input. I do not see in it any problem. S> perhaps it is possible to invent strengthening mechanical element. Yet did not see such. A steam locomotive?

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> Under the link these sv-va are painted literally on fingers. Well and all the same, if to consider in a foreshortening of the material embodiment. Here the relay, transistors, radio tubes - that in them the general? After all serious computers formed only from them. V> Yes for God's sake. Let the signal on an output will possess on orders less capacity, than on an input. I do not see in it any problem. And an example of such element from which collected the computer? The adding machine, probably? S>> Perhaps it is possible to invent strengthening mechanical element. Yet did not see such. V> a steam locomotive? Here you tell a paracart. And can all the same can select a key element in a paracart which produces gain? This element can is basic does not differ from hydraulic, we drew above?

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Here you tell a paracart. And can all the same can select a key element in a paracart which produces gain? This element can is basic does not differ from hydraulic, we drew above? And give I will help:  the Author: Sinix Date: 27.10 09:07 Ok, gears, a pneumatics and liquids are not pleasant?  two. If also it does not approach - hold a little bit chemistries in the acid environment. Well or still that . Well as, all these riches under one comb we will trample down, or all the same we refuse behind obvious uselessness?

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: V>> Under the link these sv-va are painted literally on fingers. S> well and all the same if to consider in a foreshortening of the material embodiment. Similarly. For binary numeration you will not surpass these restrictions in any way, differently banal addition do not implement.) ) S> Here the relay, transistors, radio tubes - that in them the general? After all serious computers formed only from them. In them the general reliability and cheapness in comparison with other technologies, certainly. V>> yes for God's sake. Let the signal on an output will possess on orders less capacity, than on an input. I do not see in it any problem. S> and an example of such element from which collected the computer? The adding machine, probably? The optical processor approaches? On an output the signal is weakened, amplifies the already especially electrical circuit and so on a circle. However, to you at once wrote about possibility to strengthen a signal on Not-computing elements (on certain "repeaters"). S>>> Perhaps it is possible to invent strengthening mechanical element. Yet did not see such. V>> a steam locomotive? S> here you tell a paracart. And can all the same can select a key element in a paracart which produces gain? System the dampfer-cylinder-piston. S> this element Can is basic does not differ from hydraulic, we drew above? And from any another, though electrical, though dinamichesko-mechanical (there were here examples on gears).

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: S>> Well and all the same if to consider in a foreshortening of the material embodiment. V> it is similar. For binary numeration you will not surpass these restrictions in any way, differently banal addition do not implement.) ) The question was about the material embodiment. Here, we defined the most simple binary element are a relay with contacts on a breaking. So? From it it is possible to create all difficult logical elements, to fulfill any calculations. So? What such especial in the relay with contacts on a breaking, what it is possible to construct the computing system of it? There the lever principle is used or still any physical phenomenon which not probably to replace? S>> here the relay, transistors, radio tubes - that in them the general? After all serious computers formed only from them. V> In them the general reliability and cheapness in comparison with other technologies, certainly. And a physical principle if not to take in attention a price question? What for a physical principle allows them to be computing elements? After all of one only condensers or resistors the computer to make it does not turn out, so? V> the Optical processor approaches? V> Image: pic2.jpg It is an element or the finished system? We speak about an element. Whether you can select a basic computing element of this system. V> on an output the signal is weakened, amplifies the already especially electrical circuit and so on a circle. V> however, you at once wrote about possibility to strengthen a signal on Not-computing elements (on certain "repeaters"). Well. Only for creation of the computer you will need to add to computing elements repeaters. From gain not to leave anywhere. V> system the dampfer-cylinder-piston. Very well. And what main  the phenomena help this system to become the calculator? Why the dampfer-tsilndr-piston can transform the information and a wheel is not present? S>> this element Can is basic does not differ from hydraulic, we drew above? V> and from any another, though electrical, though dinamichesko-mechanical (there were here examples on gears). But nevertheless, in a hydraulic control item, here in it: too is both the cylinder and the dampfer and even the piston. That such magic in the cylinder and the dampfer, what without them it is impossible to fulfill calculations?

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Here, we defined the most simple binary element are a relay with contacts on a breaking. Generally the relay will be more difficult than a lamp and on orders it is more difficult than the field transistor. It if all of us about complexity. S> that such especial in the relay with contacts on a breaking, what it is possible to construct the computing system of it? I will repeat in 3rd time - possibility to construct an element, satisfying to criteria of the Post. And this "element" in case of the relay consists from: - a pressure source; - a minimum of two relays working on a breaking; S> There the lever principle is used or still any physical phenomenon which not probably to replace? There non-linear f-ija, allowing to construct base for binary numeration through its combinatorial application. V>> in them the general reliability and cheapness in comparison with other technologies, certainly. S> and a physical principle if not to take in attention a price question? If you about a physical principle as electromagnetism, yes, it one of our kind. But, besides, it became popular because of cheapness and reliability (with what I began). Well and speed of propagation of changes of pressure in the electrical circuit is close to a velocity of light, and it is as much as possible achievable speed. Well it if to neglect //. But to neglect it turns out badly, therefore for transmission  for a long time already  optical calculators. However, this is orthogonal to your initial question. You after all did not ask about speed of calculations, you asked about their realizability. S> that for a physical principle allows them to be computing elements? (Including the maximum patience for the infinite repetition same) No especial physical principle here is present. The principle here especially mathematical, namely - certain non-linear f-ija allows to construct on its basis base binary numeration. For binary numeration are necessary: () the inverter (two hooked gear wheels under the circuit nearby is the elementary inverter), (b) two stable conditions of system (for a gear wheel will be - it is hooked/not is hooked) and () a method to combine input signals (for example, rotation of one gear wheel controls the fact of a linkage another). S> After all of one only condensers or resistors the computer to make it does not turn out, so? Analog calculators were under construction on condensers, coils and resistors. The first generation of rockets flied to space on analog computers. S> it is an element or the finished system? Dispute smoothly flows in ruthless, that is terminological? The relay is an element, or the finished system? The relay is an in itself most complicated system (depends on the point of view on system). Well and, on the individual relay you will construct nothing, their system for base formation (again and again) is necessary. S> We speak about an element. You tell it about "element" in attempts to simplify an event, . For simplification (abstractions) the mathematics is given us and I to you gave references to mathematical criteria. You walked on them? After all the same lamp or the transistor is, in turn, the most complicated systems, which consist of a heap of elements and the physical phenomena jointly participate in each such system some. For example, in a lamp: - effect of emmission of electrons; - effect of interaction of the charged particle and electric field; - effect of the linear superposition of electric fields; Further I return you on the guilty earth even more - the lamp controls a current, instead of pressure. But for control of a following lamp stage to us, , pressure is required. Therefore, that from a lamp current again to receive pressure, it load with the resistor, connecting this / the anode and supply plus. I.e., the system on a lamp turns out even more difficult, following physical phenomena in addition participate in it: - Finite (numerically) conductivity of materials; - proportionality of power failure on an explorer depending on a current transiting through an explorer. But also it is not enough of it! Single + form the circuit similar well-known for today to the circuit with an open collector. And it only the circuit NOT, that is is small for base. But "the circuit with an open collector" allows to load two and more keys with one resistor (to combine keys), receiving as a result binary f-iju (n) Or-NOT which is already sufficient for formation of base of binary calculation. You see, what difficult focus at if slightly to dig? Whether S> you can select a basic computing element of this system. The minimum basic computing element in such system will consist of two lamps and one resistor. No more simple (minimum) element will make any more base. Similarly with the transistor. Minimum two transistors under the circuit with the open collector (source), loaded on one resistor, will make base. One is bad - such circuit differs the lowest high-speed performance, just at level of high-speed performance of lamp circuits. Therefore, popularity was received by two-stroke circuits, for example, TTL. Under circuit TTL by the "active" signal has been selected logical "0" that was necessary for noise immunity on a supply. Therefore, the circuit implements reverse f-iju - (n) I-not which too suits base of binary numeration. 5 transistors participate in the minimum key TTL at us + 3 resistors + a minimum one diode: Yes, often draw one transistor with two emitters is it is equivalent to two transistors connected by collectors and bases. Input (protective) diodes can be neglected, but the day off - is mandatory, differently it does not turn out to close completely the upper output transistor in absence of a signal (0-lja) on an input. Not sickly such "the basic element" was drew, not? S> Well. Only for creation of the computer you will need to add to computing elements repeaters. From gain not to leave anywhere. It only for homogeneity of elements in the circuit. And if at us a certain circuit produces "unidirectional" calculations hinders nothing gradually to reduce scale of capacities in a direction from an input to an output. V>> system the dampfer-cylinder-piston. S> it is very good. And what main  the phenomena help this system to become the calculator? It is very bad, when lose a conversation thread.) ) You asked the following: can select a key element in a paracart which produces gain? S> why the dampfer-tsilndr-piston can transform the information and a wheel is not present? The wheel can wonderfully transform the information. For example, can transform linear f-iju into a sine, a cosine or on the contrary - in  and . S> too is both the cylinder and the dampfer and even the piston. That such magic in the cylinder and the dampfer, what without them it is impossible to fulfill calculations? Without them too it is possible. This business of specific implementation.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> Karoch, the calculator should generate the new information, and what-thread non-linear conversion of the available information for this purpose is required. And it is possible . To justify? It is sick interesting.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Sharov, you wrote: S> Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V>> Karoch, the calculator should generate the new information, and what-thread non-linear conversion of the available information for this purpose is required. S> and it is possible . To justify? It is sick interesting. I all wait, when condemnation will be included into a channel "that there is an information". Already more close. Generally would be more correct to tell to derive the information or to transform, instead of to create the new. In the information on a quadratic equation already there are its roots. Solving the equation, we derive this information.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Sharov, you wrote: V>> Karoch, the calculator should generate the new information, and what-thread non-linear conversion of the available information for this purpose is required. S> and it is possible . To justify? It is sick interesting. To justify an axiom?)) non-linear conversions are such at which the superposition principle is not observed, i.e. F (x+y) is not equal F (x) + F (y). Until the superposition principle is observed, the information amount does not change. All. Justified.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Qulac, you wrote: S>> And it is possible . To justify? It is sick interesting. Q> I all wait, when condemnation will be included into a channel "that there is an information". Already more close. Generally would be more correct to tell to derive the information or to transform, instead of to create the new. In the information on a quadratic equation already there are its roots. Solving the equation, we derive this information. , no. The information amount is the relative value. It is obvious that the system in which are encoded (what or image) both an input equation, and its roots, possesses big kol-vom information, than system where the input equation is encoded only. At least it is more on value about such information: "the circuit finds equation roots".

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Qulac, you wrote: S>> And it is possible . To justify? It is sick interesting. Q> I all wait, when condemnation will be included into a channel "that there is an information". Already more close. Generally would be more correct to tell to derive the information or to transform, instead of to create the new. In the information on a quadratic equation already there are its roots. In linear too there are roots, and always. Also what?

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> Hello, Qulac, you wrote: S>>> And it is possible . To justify? It is sick interesting. Q>> I all wait, when condemnation will be included into a channel "that there is an information". Already more close. Generally would be more correct to tell to derive the information or to transform, instead of to create the new. In the information on a quadratic equation already there are its roots. Solving the equation, we derive this information. V> , no. The information amount is the relative value. It is obvious that the system in which are encoded (what or image) both an input equation, and its roots, possesses big kol-vom information, than system where the input equation is encoded only. At least it is more on value about such information: "the circuit finds equation roots". Correctly, rather and much depends on from what belltower at it to look. The algorithm of the decision of the equation too is the information.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Sharov, you wrote: S> Hello, Qulac, you wrote: S>>> And it is possible . To justify? It is sick interesting. Q>> I all wait, when condemnation will be included into a channel "that there is an information". Already more close. Generally would be more correct to tell to derive the information or to transform, instead of to create the new. In the information on a quadratic equation already there are its roots. S> in linear too there are roots, and always. Also what? I it to that all rests that there is for us an essential information in this case as there is no information out of our consciousness. Without this calculation are useless, and physical implementation approaches that which provides the accuracy necessary to us and cost. And all. Any physical process about which something is known to us, it is possible to use as the calculator.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Qulac, you wrote: Q> it is correct, rather and much depends on from what belltower at it to look. In a macrocosm differently in any way.)) Even in the quantum world it is possible to judge "the full information of system" (a so-called pure state of system) only with some probability which is considered as superposition wave f th. An uncertainty principle - it the most fundamental, . For this reason in business of calculations reliability is important, and it is now reached by redundancy of those quantum elements in recalculation on information bit. The result of operation of quantum algorithm has probability character. For the account of small magnification of an amount of operations in algorithm it is possible to approach as is wished probability of obtaining of the correct result to unit. For example, the bipolar transistor is too the quantum calculator. Reliability of operation of such transistor is reached big kol-vom simultaneously (parallely) participating charged particles (electrons/holes).

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> What minimum property the material body that it was possible to name it a computing element should possess and to form of it computing systems? If seriously attended to this point in question look Feynman - Feynman Lectures On Computation. I did not read, but many answers to the questions on the given subjects is thought you find. For it is reasonings of the physicist on calculation.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> (Including the maximum patience for the infinite repetition same) V> No especial physical principle here is present. The principle here especially mathematical, namely - certain non-linear f-ija allows to construct on its basis base binary numeration. Did not want to prompt, but it is fine. Look that the general at the relay, transistors, radio tubes: Roughly: 1. There is a controlling output. At the relay it is a coil output, at a lamp - a grid, at the transistor - basis (for bipolar) or a lock (for field). At the relay the coil has 2 outputs, and at lamps and transistors the second output is as though connected to an input electrode. 2. There is an input electrode mandatory. 3. There is an output electrode mandatory. Is hardly deeper: 1. The input signal which moves on a controlling electrode, has smaller capacity than a switched output signal. And the most interesting. There is a certain clever barrier. For example in the relay is a layer of air between contacts when they are opened. If the environment had lower resistance (for example to ship the relay in an electrolyte) - the relay would not work. Here so - to dissolve contacts on 2 mm and it is possible to guarantee that in between does not transit an electricity (well, of course, with restriction on pressure, volt to 1000). In a lamp there is a barrier in the form of electric field on a grid. Why that this barrier allows to switch the big capacity of a flow of electrons between the cathode and the anode. I already forgot why, to tell the truth. Similarly in the transistor - there is a barrier of the electron-hole conductivity (for bipolar) or a barrier electrostatic (for field). S>> After all of one only condensers or resistors the computer to make it does not turn out, so? V> Analog calculators were under construction on condensers, coils and resistors. The first generation of rockets flied to space on analog computers. Give an example, I do not trust. There except resistors and condensers there should be other "clever" elements to which you did not give value. By the way, into the account of coils - what for you added? There are artful coils enough. Even amplifiers on transformers. Let's coils remove. Without coils on one resistors and condensers of a computer do not collect. It is ready to argue.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, vdimas, you wrote: V> Generally the relay will be more difficult than a lamp and on orders it is more difficult than the field transistor. It if all of us about complexity. It is not more difficult. If on points to select the main interactions - that both in the relay and in their lamp it is approximately identical. In the relay the electromagnet disconnects contact. In the relay on contact the current leaks and on dielectric (to air or the gas environment in an open-ended state) does not leak any more. In a lamp electric field from a grid creates a barrier. In a lamp the current leaks on vacuum thanks to heating of the cathode. In a lamp the current ceases to leak if on a grid a tax minus a charge thanks to a barrier created by electric field. Approximately identical complexity. V> - a minimum of two relays working on a breaking; Also what? A basic element that all the same is 1 relays. S>> there the lever principle is used or still any physical phenomenon which not probably to replace? V> There non-linear f-ija, allowing to construct base for binary numeration through its combinatorial application. And the physical phenomenon what? Function only describes it. V> the relay is an element, or the finished system? The relay is an in itself most complicated system (depends on the point of view on system). Well and, on the individual relay you will construct nothing, their system for base formation (again and again) is necessary. The relay on a breaking (or its analog) is a minimum element on which basis it is possible to construct a computer. Well, conductings and a supply element are still necessary. Yes, the in itself relay consists of parts, but separately they not  computing elements and not to construct a computer of them. V> for simplification (abstractions) the mathematics is given us and I to you gave references to mathematical criteria. You walked on them? Walked. But me not the abstraction interests and the physical phenomenon which leads to creation of a computing element from not the computing. As here it is conditionally possible to divide the nature live and lifeless. So conditionally all things in the world can be divided into computing elements and not computing elements. And a principal condition - computing elements it is possible to combine and create computing systems  the arbitrary complexity (that cannot be made of threads and  - there only purely to show to students a principle, no more). V> For example, in a lamp: V> - effect of emmission of electrons; V> - effect of interaction of the charged particle and electric field; V> - effect of the linear superposition of electric fields; Well done And now describe what effects is in the relay and try to abstract, find parallels. That in a lamp is a barrier. V> further I return you on the guilty earth even more - the lamp controls a current, instead of pressure. But for control of a following lamp stage to us, , pressure is required. Therefore, that from a lamp current again to receive pressure, it load with the resistor, connecting this / the anode and supply plus. In a case with a lamp and the transistor it is hardly more difficult. The logical element minimum is not one transistor. V> you see, what difficult focus at if slightly to dig? I in course of it, it do not change a question essence. We tell so - a lamp or the transistor not ideal computing elements. It is necessary to compensate their problems . Elements. From the relay all is much easier. V> the minimum basic computing element in such system will consist of two lamps and one resistor. No more simple (minimum) element will make any more base. Well. V> not sickly such "the basic element" was drew, not? You need to learn to abstract. Roughly speaking to all problem in that that in the transistor the controlling circuit is a basis-emitter. Simultaneously the emitter is an input of a supply for an output circuit. It is necessary to add . Elements which compensate this communication. V> it only for homogeneity of elements in the circuit. And if at us a certain circuit produces "unidirectional" calculations hinders nothing gradually to reduce scale of capacities in a direction from an input to an output. Reduction of scale of capacities - means constant attenuation of a signal, cannot construct on such elements the arbitrary computing system any more. V>>> system the dampfer-cylinder-piston. S>> it is very good. And what main  the phenomena help this system to become the calculator? V> it is very bad, when lose a conversation thread.) ) V> You asked the following: V> V> can select a key element in a paracart which produces gain? You selected the dampfer-cylinder-piston. So? Now describe what physical phenomena allocate this system with ability to be a computing element? S>> why the dampfer-tsilndr-piston can transform the information and a wheel is not present? V> the Wheel can wonderfully transform the information. V> for example, can transform linear f-iju into a sine, a cosine or on the contrary - in  and . But of wheels of a computer not to construct. S>> too is both the cylinder and the dampfer and even the piston. That such magic in the cylinder and the dampfer, what without them it is impossible to fulfill calculations? V> without them too it is possible. This business of specific implementation. Let's understand at first with this system, then about others. You exaggerate - real possibilities of practical creation of a computer not so much.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Without coils on one resistors and condensers of a computer do not collect. It is ready to argue. Here to you without coils. And that two times not to rise: how about barriers here? P.S. There is an excellent method to distinguish "the theory I here here have the right to life" from "of that decided, on the facts of attention not to turn" aka criterion of Lakatosa: the Research program is considered progressing when its theoretical growth anticipates its empirical growth that is when it with some success can predict the new facts ("progressive shift of a problem"); the program regresses, if its theoretical growth lags behind its empirical growth that is when she offers only overdue explanations either casual discoveries, or the facts anticipated and opened by the competing program ("regressive shift of a problem"). If the research program progressively explains more, rather than competing it "forces out" its and this competing program can be eliminated ... (),  for a little bit philosophies in section about philosophy;) I do not want to disappoint, but  yes.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: V> Generally the relay will be more difficult than a lamp and on orders it is more difficult than the field transistor. It if all of us about complexity. S> it is not more difficult. More difficult. Electric field is a statics. Magnetic - dynamics. S> in the relay the electromagnet disconnects contact. Effect of a magnetic induction in materials - one of the most difficult for today. It is necessary to take not that material, and the coil will attract of nothing.)) V>> - a minimum of two relays working on a breaking; S> Also what? A basic element that all the same is 1 relays. Or throw-over group in the relay? Or the coil in the relay? Or a material of its core? And, can, a material of a working body of throw-over group? Either a winding material? Or a material ? Or the circuit of fixing of throw-over group in stable conditions? "And, all the same, where at it the button?" () gangster Stamp. Or you confuses, what relays placed in  a box, such "a black box"? And if there two relays will be in one box? And if it is more?)) in general, you as the programmer already hundreds/thousand times in the practice considered different levels of abstractions in difficult systems where "element" on one of level of abstractions appeared difficult system on other. And now you "are at war" for a choice of a certain abstraction layer convenient to you or how?) ) , in business of calculations by abstraction top level there will be mathematical and any another. Remaining levels depend on implementation particulars,  the same as in programming. S> the relay on a breaking (or its analog) is a minimum element on which basis it is possible to construct a computer. To you already resulted some refuting examples. S> yes, the in itself relay consists of parts, but separately they not  computing elements and not to construct a computer of them. The relay in itself too is not a computing element. V>> for simplification (abstractions) the mathematics is given us and I to you gave references to mathematical criteria. You walked on them? S> Walked. But me not the abstraction interests Meanwhile you a certain abstraction layer convenient to you interests. I only was already lost,  I will not understand, convenient for what? In the beginning it seemed to me that "convenient for understanding", I gave to you where to dig - aside non-linear conversions and the information theory. And it is is specific for binary numeration - towards criteria of the Post. On the contrary! It is not interesting to you. So you interests? S> and the physical phenomenon which leads to creation of a computing element from not the computing. It is a lot of these physical phenomena, already showed to you. Matter is not in the specific physical phenomena. The calculator carries out information transform, that is energy conversion. To you already showed that these conversions can be the most different - the energy type, somewhere its vector etc. In itself calculations somewhere will be transformed is too a certain abstraction, model. To specific algorithm of calculations deeply to , on what physical principles it implemented. About non-linear f-iju I too to you told at once. Here even to take your two relays, working on closing (as logical f-ii 2) - they implement an example non-linear f-iju. On one relay submitted +5, on an output 0, on another +5, and on an output already +5. The circuit is non-linear, however, implements logical multiplication. S> so conditionally all things in the world can be divided into computing elements and not computing elements. You yet did not show it, and here reverse to you showed repeatedly. To you followed refute at least the arguments given to you. However, I do not know as to refute links to operating calculators. S> and a principal condition - computing elements it is possible to combine and create computing systems  the arbitrary complexity (that cannot be made of threads and  - there only purely to show to students a principle, no more). And it already a question of reliability of calculators, i.e. a question of especially practical expediency, again and again to read the first my answer to you: http://www.rsdn.org/forum/philosophy/6596753.1 But you strange conduct dispute - spring from the basic realizability in practical expediency and is reverse. For example, 2 centuries ago was inexpedient to build calculators on the relay - they would cost fabulously. Today is inexpedient to build quantum or optical calculators, but years through 50-100 again it will be expedient etc. Well and how you want to catch "principle" if it depends on time, i.e. from a level of development of technologies? V>> not sickly such "the basic element" was drew, not? S> you need to learn to abstract. To us?) ) S> Reduction of scale of capacities - means constant attenuation of a signal, cannot construct on such elements the arbitrary computing system any more. To a smog. A question in expediency. S> you selected the dampfer-cylinder-piston. So? So, it is the mechanical amplifier with non-linear strengthening f. S> Now describe what physical phenomena allocate this system with ability to be a computing element? Any. A principle as at the relay. The single relay is not a computing element to itself, it only implements non-linear f-iju. But through a combination of these f th it is possible to construct base. Replace pressure with pressure in the steam boiler. Replace system from the coil + contact group with the dampfer. Replace wires  and you will receive the full analog of systems on the relay. V>> the wheel can wonderfully transform the information. V>> for example, can transform linear f-iju into a sine, a cosine or on the contrary - in  and . S> But of wheels of a computer not to construct. Easily. The first adding machines were under construction on wheels. (Is more true, on gears, but after all it is a variety such wheels, especially for a reliable linkage, truly?) S> let's understand at first with this system, then about others. S> you exaggerate - real possibilities of practical creation of a computer not so much. I will repeat, your adjective "practical" strongly depends on a level  certain technologies here and now.

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Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, , you wrote: S>> But of wheels of a computer not to construct. The machine ? You did not track a discussion course, already resulted adding machines and similar. It not that. That it was more clear, initially the question arose in a foreshortening of origin of neurons and a brain from not computing matter. What you generally understand as calculations? Division is calculation or not? The divider is implemented on two resistors. There is no Turing completeness.