1

Topic: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

What minimum property the material body that it was possible to name it a computing element should possess and to form of it computing systems? Here for all the electromagnetic relay is more less clear. Coil-electromagnet and contacts which at current submission incorporate or disconnected. This element in itself computing, a minimum computing cell. What its main property? It can be switched by a signal and switch a signal. And an indispensable condition: the switched signal should be more powerful, that is there should not be a signal loss. The electromagnetic relay demands capacity of 0.1 W (for example 10 volt, 0.01), and throughput of contacts 10 And 10 In (100 W) that allows to include in a circuit of one relay more than one another. About the same basic property at logical elements on transistors: they switch a signal and are switched by a signal, and switched has capacity more than the switching. Mandatory. And if such property is found out is an element can become computing system master cell. On idea the neuron, a basic element of reason, too should possess these properties of a computing element. So? But what is a minimum computing element? How at level of the elementary particles to make a computing element?

2

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> What minimum property the material body that it was possible to name it a computing element should possess and to form of it computing systems? There is enough, that on this piece operation I-not was implemented. S> On idea the neuron, a basic element of reason, too should possess these properties of a computing element. So? No, not so.

3

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Voblin, you wrote: V> it is Enough, that on this piece operation I-not was implemented. Let at matter level speak. I-not is an information abstraction. What it is necessary to make in a material world to materialize the given abstraction? What particles interactions elementary and what in between should be in a minimum variant? S>> on idea the neuron, a basic element of reason, too should possess these properties of a computing element. So? V> Is not present, not so. Justify.

4

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> That it is necessary to make in a material world to materialize the given abstraction? More effectively, of course, on two transistors, but I am on a bet ready to make such piece of wooden plates S> What particles interactions elementary and what in between should be in a minimum variant? Yes the most normal. It is possible to make, for example, so that at hit of two electrons in a certain area of their joint electrostatic field was enough that through nearby electrons ceased to climb through being channel. Here the element I-not also turns out. S>>> On idea the neuron, a basic element of reason, too should possess these properties of a computing element. So? V>> Is not present, not so. S> Justify. And from what you decided, what the brain in a normal mode of functioning generally is engaged in calculations? He starts to be engaged in calculations, when receives at school control on the mathematician. 14+27... My God, how it to master?. . At billions neurons a panic. They would like to die. And, as to spite, fingers on hands and feet do not suffice to cope with this horror

5

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Voblin, you wrote: V> is more effective, of course, on two transistors, but I am on a bet ready to make such piece of wooden plates On how many you are ready to argue? A principal condition: that from these elements it was possible to collect  the machine of the given complexity. I.e. 2-3 elements to connect is one. And you try to connect 2-3 thousand such elements that they interacted.  - plates break, as they do not strengthen a signal. There should be a signal gain, differently leads to attenuation. S>> what particles interactions elementary and what in between should be in a minimum variant? V> yes the most normal. It is possible to make, for example, so that at hit of two electrons in a certain area of their joint electrostatic field was enough that through nearby electrons ceased to climb through being channel. Here the element I-not also turns out. And why through the channel cease to fly by, after all at flying by too there is an electrostatic field and they part forcibly controlling electrons? V> and from what you decided, what the brain in a normal mode of functioning generally is engaged in calculations? He starts to be engaged in calculations, when receives at school control on the mathematician. 14+27... My God, how it to master?... At billions neurons a panic. They would like to die. And, as to spite, fingers on hands and feet do not suffice to cope with this horror of Calculation is not only mathematics. Any data handling is a calculation. When to one entering given + to internal state there correspond certain outbox.

6

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

S> the Principal condition: that from these elements it was possible to collect  the machine of the given complexity. I.e. 2-3 elements to connect is one. And you try to connect 2-3 thousand such elements that they interacted.  - plates break, as they do not strengthen a signal. There should be a signal gain, differently leads to attenuation. Gain is not necessary. Logic on threads and

7

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> On how many you are ready to argue? S> a principal condition: that from these elements it was possible to collect  the machine of the given complexity. I.e. 2-3 elements to connect is one. And you try to connect 2-3 thousand such elements that they interacted.  - plates break, as they do not strengthen a signal. There should be a signal gain, differently leads to attenuation. With "a principal condition" on how many I will not begin to argue. Stupidly there is no time to be engaged in such hogwash. Perhaps on pension? Yes, here, of course, the energy application is required. It is possible, for example, a butt with water on an attic to deliver. S> and why through the channel cease to fly by, after all at flying by too there is an electrostatic field and they part forcibly controlling electrons? Here it... Protons with neutrons would not prevent. And what? Classics of a genre! Whether you casually search for the material basis of the information? If yes, throw. Empty it. I not in the sense that at the information non-material (My God ) a basis. At all is not present. Material is obliged to be. But it basically suits practically any. Electrons with protons - APPRX. the Piece of wood and a flank with water - too APPRX. Transistors with copper  - well, it is clear. Any basis approaching on  for the decision of the task. To search among subatomic particles  it is not necessary. It there is not present. S> Calculations is not only mathematics. Any data handling is a calculation. When to one entering given + to internal state there correspond certain outbox. That any "handling" of "data" is calculation - extremely hardy . Basically, already even ours with you programming for a long time ceased to be laid down in the classical concept of calculation. It happened so earlier that in a computer on the one hand put packs of punched cards, and then printout with results on the other hand gets out. Here there - yes, there was a calculation in classical sense. And now the program registers event handlers and further already that there in what sequence will arrive, and, having imposed on the algorithms put in a program, and becomes result. Classical "calculation" - not about the systems opened to the world, and even a triggered copy of the Word - open system. And if the system is scattered on the world on a heap of servers artfully interacting among themselves for such system even the concept "a state of system at the moment of time t" is inapplicable. That to want from a box from tens billions ""?

8

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, hi_octane, you wrote: _> Gain is not necessary. Still as it is necessary. 2-3 elements at the expense of a signal which capacity is provided with a hand here work. Capacity of a signal should provide a raising . Think that if to connect 2-3 thousand such elements - mass  there will be some tons. And all capacity on a raising  without gain should be provided with muscular force. Threads simply  even if you can provide capacity of an initial signal (for example for threads will pull some tens persons). On it signal gain is an indispensable condition for a computing element of which it is possible to construct the machine of the given complexity. It is possible to do systems in which the signal does not die away even from hundreds billions elements of transistors.

9

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Voblin, you wrote: V> With "a principal condition" on how many I will not begin to argue. Stupidly there is no time to be engaged in such hogwash. Perhaps on pension? V> yes, here, of course, the energy application is required. It is possible, for example, a butt with water on an attic to deliver. It would be interesting to see such mechanical element which strengthens a signal. While in doubt its existence. See above that wrote to me and that I answered concerning system with  and strings - such elements for computing system creation do not approach. S>> and why through the channel cease to fly by, after all at flying by too there is an electrostatic field and they part forcibly controlling electrons? V> here it... Protons with neutrons would not prevent. And what? Classics of a genre! Like write that from 1 atom created the transistor. Whether V> you casually search for the material basis of the information? The material basis of calculation. V> if yes throw. Empty it. I not in the sense that at the information non-material (My God ) a basis. At all is not present. Material is obliged to be. But it basically suits practically any. Electrons with protons - APPRX. the Piece of wood and a flank with water - too APPRX. With pieces of wood to me yet did not result an example. I want to find that the general between all these elements of which it is possible to construct the computing system. V> transistors with copper  - well, it is clear. Any basis approaching on  for the decision of the task. To search among subatomic particles  it is not necessary. It there is not present. No, not . And minimum system which is capable of calculations. Probably that it unique and all remaining only superstructures. And pieces of wood after all by means of electromagnetic interaction interact. However, of pieces of wood the computing system with the arbitrary complexity you will not construct.

10

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> On it signal gain is an indispensable condition for a computing element of which it is possible to construct the machine of the given complexity. It is quite possible to strengthen through the certain amount of stages caused by used basis. Thus the calculator and the amplifier can be divided.

11

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Ops, you wrote: Ops> it is quite possible to strengthen through the certain amount of stages caused by used basis. Thus the calculator and the amplifier can be divided. Logically we can divide them. Two different words: the amplifier and the calculator. But in material most likely it appears that they are indivisible. That is that can strengthen all - can and calculate.

12

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> It would be interesting to see such mechanical element which strengthens a signal. While in doubt its existence. Go to a bathroom and turn . The small effort to a lamb controls the big capacity of a pressure of a stream. Gain - at all electronics prerogative. If there is an exterior application of energy, implementation of a strengthening element - the trivial engineering task. S> like write that from 1 atom created the transistor. Willingly I trust. Why also is not present? S> the Material basis of calculation. Let's argue. That the subject could produce calculation, it should be composite. Even banal I-not as assumes that we have two inputs and one output. Total three , together giving one cumulative effect. System , in which "ability to produce calculation" - it  property. And what such  property? It is such piece which is present at system as a whole, but at all misses in all its components taken separately. Here also it turns out that if it is not implemented by three plates "ability to calculate I-not" is not present property at one of plates and, especially, at atoms of these plates, and the more so at subatomic particles of these atoms. Actually, in it the main weakness . Trying to comprehend an essence of the phenomenon which happens only ,  decomposes system on components and, as a result, tries to discover in these components what in them is not present and cannot be. S> is not present, not . And minimum system which is capable of calculations. Probably that it unique and all remaining only superstructures. Here it "and all remaining only superstructures" very persistently hints that you try to implement principal unrealizable dream  - to find the elementary brick  properties. That then from these bricks itself watched  property was added by a method of simple accumulation (or as like to speak , through amount passage in quality). But that's just the point that all without an exception (since on determination)  properties of all without an exception of systems are, as a matter of fact, the nonzero total of zero. Such hogwash. They, reptiles such, do not submit to the conservation law and consequently easily arise from anywhere and leave in anywhere. Certainly, despite told by me here about systems and them  properties, there is one small  a question. Calculation - rather amusing process implying that its result implicitly contains in the initial data and algorithm. For example, the answer to a question "will is 123+777" already how many in the question, only it not to receive without working off of process of calculation. That is before start of process the result in one sense is, and in other sense it is not present. Prokruchivanie calculations does so that it was in all senses. And the most important resource necessary for obtaining of the answer is time. At least because points "to" and "after" cannot coincide. Trying to argue on a physical basis of an event, we by all means walk smack that to us the physical nature of time is unknown. That is well absolutely. No idea at anybody. Such affairs.

13

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Voblin, you wrote: V> Go to a bathroom and turn . The small effort to a lamb controls the big capacity of a pressure of a stream. Here, I will disagree. In  - a lever principle. It is necessary to make some turns. And if one (for the emergency easel) - that very strong and for the long pen (or flat-nose pliers if the pen broke). Otherwise the water stream itself would push the piston of the easel and it was twisted, if there was no friction. Try to make such  which is locked and opens a water pressure. And that there was no exponentially rising time lag after each element. If the element is arranged by a lever principle (hydraulic) that is that water began to flow, it is necessary to fill capacity capacity filling on each link causes dead time rise. V> gain - at all electronics prerogative. If there is an exterior application of energy, implementation of a strengthening element - the trivial engineering task. Give an example at least one device strengthening a signal without electricity usage. Here there is a relay. But it has the electromagnetic nature. Similar that the signal amplifier is mandatory should have  the nature. Abstractly it seems that is possible from a shit and sticks to make. And in practice - only connected to an electricity. S>> the material basis of calculation. V> let's argue. That the subject could produce calculation, it should be composite. We speak about those bricks of which it consists. It is necessary to divide a computing element and the computing system. V> even banal I-not as assumes that we have two inputs and one output. I-not - already composite. Basic only 2 elements: 1. At submission of a signal contacts are shorted. 2. At submission contacts are on the contrary disconnected. It is possible to make the computing system of any complexity of these two basic elements. And all logical elements. But it is impossible to replace with one another, that is from elements of 1 type it is impossible to create an element 2 types and on the contrary. And here the material embodiment of each of these elements on the relay, for example, demands an electromagnet and contacts. V> total three , together giving one cumulative effect. System , in which "ability to produce calculation" - it  property. It not one effect and it is possible to tell the composite computer which can be spread out on some basic computing elements about which wrote hardly above. V> and what such  property? It is such piece which is present at system as a whole, but at all misses in all its components taken separately. Here also it turns out that if it is not implemented by three plates "ability to calculate I-not" is not present property at one of plates and, especially, at atoms of these plates, and the more so at subatomic particles of these atoms. Understand - from basic elements it is possible to create the computing system of any complexity. However property to calculate - appears on somebody level, at level of basic elements. And so  these elements and speech. What main property of these elements. V> here it "and all remaining only superstructures" very persistently hints that you try to implement principal unrealizable dream  - to find the elementary brick  properties. Such brick is already found. It is the switch controlled a signal. It is known such 4 material embodiments: 1. On the relay. 2. On radio tubes. 3. On field transistors. 4. On bipolar transistors. On threads and girkah/castors - only the most simple systems as there is not present the amplifier and its existence remains in doubt. Like even it is possible to make on a luminous flow. A question: what the general at all these systems?

14

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

15

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

16

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: V>> Go to a bathroom and turn . The small effort to a lamb controls the big capacity of a pressure of a stream. S> here, I will disagree. In  - a lever principle. It is necessary to make some turns. I to myself both on kitchen, and in a bathroom delivered ceramic easels. Not . Slightly  you push, and begins  how it is necessary. S> Give an example at least one device strengthening a signal without electricity usage. A pistol. And a pedal "gas" in the car. If suddenly it seems that in a pistol too chemical energy is a variant of electromagnetism and it would be desirable that , , an atomic bomb. S> basic only 2 elements: S> 1. At submission of a signal contacts are shorted. S> 2. At submission contacts are on the contrary disconnected. S> it is possible to make the computing system of any complexity of these two basic elements. And all logical elements. But it is impossible to replace with one another, that is from elements of 1 type it is impossible to create an element 2 types and on the contrary. It is possible to replace the first sequentially connected by two second. At the switch one input. On it you will not make even banal "And". Not to mention addition of numbers. S>... S> a question: what the general at all these systems? If hint that calculations finally is reduced to electromagnetism, in vain. Simply so it was added that meanwhile it is convenient to us to operate with the substance consisting in the core from electrons and protons.

17

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Voblin, you wrote: V> I to myself both on kitchen, and in a bathroom delivered ceramic easels. Not . Slightly  you push, and begins  how it is necessary. What principle of operation of the easel? Why it can control energy which is more than put to it? V> the Pistol. And a pedal "gas" in the car. V> if suddenly it seems that in a pistol too chemical energy is a variant of electromagnetism and it would be desirable that , , an atomic bomb. Give at first with the easel we understand. V> at the switch one input. On it you will not make even banal "And". Not to mention addition of numbers. Drew to you a picture: It is an element And from two controlled switches. Submit + a supply on 2 inputs simultaneously and on an output too will be +. If at least on one input will not be + a supply (logical 1) on an output will be 0. S>>... S>> the Question: what the general at all these systems? V> If hint that calculations finally is reduced to electromagnetism, in vain. Simply so it was added that meanwhile it is convenient to us to operate with the substance consisting in the core from electrons and protons. Not to electromagnetism and to what that more to the general. Though it is not eliminated that more the general while it is known only in electromagnetic implementation even if it is a stream of water and a lock (after all this all electromagnetic interaction).

18

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> What principle of operation of the easel? Why it can control energy which is more than put to it? The principle of operation of the easel is clear to each beginning sanitary technician. Because the small effort to the dampfer regulates passage of the big energetic flow on a pipe. Only it is not necessary to play the fool and  here electromagnetism. At all of us material is made of substance, and additional instructions that the pipe and the dampfer are made of protons and electrons no more intelligently, than the reasoning what "the easel works as will of the Allah for if was not on that will of the Allah unless the easel could work?" S> Drew to you a picture: S> [Image: AND.png] Ups... It was wrong. S> not to electromagnetism and to what that more to the general. Though it is not eliminated that more the general while it is known only in electromagnetic implementation even if it is a stream of water and a lock (after all this all electromagnetic interaction). Give at once not to suffer, to will of the Allah.

19

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> What minimum property the material body that it was possible to name it a computing element should possess and to form of it computing systems? A state. Calculation - passage from one state in another. S> about the same basic property at logical elements on transistors: they switch a signal and are switched by a signal, and switched has capacity more than the switching. Mandatory. And if such property is found out is an element can become computing system master cell. And how then the logical zero turns out? On idea at switched capacity is less than switching.

20

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Voblin, you wrote: V> the Principle of operation of the easel is clear to each beginning sanitary technician. Because the small effort to the dampfer regulates passage of the big energetic flow on a pipe. If you tried to close a pipe simply cork - that capacity demanded for closing would be equal capacity of water stream. So? That is on such system of calculation not to construct. And here on such circuit it is already possible: Let's disassemble. If to change a vector of application of force of closing, fixing the dampfer in horizontal position (that the dampfer moved only upwards or downwards, but could not move in a direction of driving of water) - that to you is required to overcome only force of a friction of the dampfer about a sealant. And water will press on the dampfer and to increase force of a friction, but all the same for dampfer regulation smaller capacity, than capacity of a flow is required. It turns out we enter such concepts as: 1. A vector of controlling force. 2. A vector of controlled force. 3. Vector of static force (that force that retains the dampfer). 4. A vector of stray force (force of a friction, nevertheless is present). The Indispensable condition: orthogonality of controlled and controlling force. That is all trick in a difference of a direction of these forces thanks to what by means of smaller energy we can control  energy. So? All same properties are at a radio tube. Pravljaemaja force - this that that leaks from the cathode to the anode. Controlling is a grid. Well and so on. Similarly with transistors - all these properties are present. V> only it is not necessary to play the fool and  here electromagnetism. At all of us material is made of substance, and additional instructions that the pipe and the dampfer are made of protons and electrons no more intelligently, than the reasoning what "the easel works as will of the Allah for if was not on that will of the Allah unless the easel could work?" But you understand that that allows the easel to be able to control  capacity by means of the smaller? After all if to try to stop up with cork a water stream - that the same capacity, as well as at a stream is necessary.

21

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Sharov, you wrote: S> the State. Calculation - passage from one state in another. All has state, however computing systems not from all it is possible to construct. Here water has a state - hot and cold. How from this to construct the computing system? S>> about the same basic property at logical elements on transistors: they switch a signal and are switched by a signal, and switched has capacity more than the switching. Mandatory. And if such property is found out is an element can become computing system master cell. S> and how then the logical zero turns out? On idea at switched capacity is less than switching. The zero is an absence of a signal. Did not understand a question. Here we say about gain coefficient that the computing element is mandatory should possess gain coefficient.

22

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> If you tried to close a pipe simply cork - that capacity demanded for closing would be equal capacity of water stream. So? Not so. The force at least equal to force of a pressure is required. And capacity is the force multiplied for speed. In  the easel (which not ceramics) rotation of a lamb by a hand of the child (so-so capacity) overcomes capacity of the big iron centrifugal pump. Thus the vector of driving of stopping up cork is absolutely not orthogonal, and was specific is opposite to a vector of a superimposed stream. It is not necessary to confuse force to capacity. It at once a banana on the physicist. S> an indispensable condition: orthogonality of controlled and controlling force. "Indispensable condition" goes to have a rest. It contradicts a reality given to us in sensations.

23

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Hello, Sharov, you wrote: S>> the State. Calculation - passage from one state in another. S> all has state, however computing systems not from all it is possible to construct. From only. A question as well as where to store a state. S> here water has a state - hot and cold. How from this to construct the computing system? Than hydrodynamic processes differ from . Processes? Well if only physics. S>>> about the same basic property at logical elements on transistors: they switch a signal and are switched by a signal, and switched has capacity more than the switching. Mandatory. And if such property is found out is an element can become computing system master cell. S>> and how then the logical zero turns out? On idea at switched capacity is less than switching. S> the zero is an absence of a signal. Did not understand a question. Here we say about gain coefficient that the computing element is mandatory should possess gain coefficient. Possibly I not so well understood written by you above but as in same semi-conductor environment from 1 to receive 0 if "and switched has capacity more switching".

24

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Voblin, you wrote: V> Not so. The force at least equal to force of a pressure Is required. The picture with the dampfer see. Controlling force is necessary not big, much more smaller than force of a flow. As the flow is orthogonal to controlling force. Compensating force of fixing of the dampfer (that is the flow does not pull out the dampfer thanks to fixing, instead of thanks to controlling force) serves. Otherwise controlling force will be equal to force of a flow and all - happens signal attenuation, the computing system not to construct. V> in  the easel (which not ceramics) rotation of a lamb by a hand of the child (so-so capacity) overcomes capacity of the big iron centrifugal pump. Thus the vector of driving of stopping up cork is absolutely not orthogonal, and was specific is opposite to a vector of a superimposed stream. That's just the point - stopping up cork! But after all controlling force are circular motions of a lamb, instead of cork pushing. You would try to press manually cork - anything it would not turn out. Think: what principle allows to control by means of smaller force  force? What is the general at all such systems? And here hand circular motions are just orthogonal to flow driving. V> "indispensable condition" goes to have a rest. It contradicts a reality given to us in sensations. Where contradicts?

25

Re: Basic property of a computing element at matter level

Hello, Sharov, you wrote: S> From only. A question as well as where to store a state. Each subject has a state. For example temperature or position in relation to the north. How by means of it to construct the computing system? S>> here water has a state - hot and cold. How from this to construct the computing system? S> than hydrodynamic processes differ from . Processes? Well if only physics. You not about hydrodynamic processes and about temperature. Or layout of subjects under the relation to each other. Yes, it is possible to perform simple operations, a maximum the adding machine. But it is a maximum - the computer of the arbitrary complexity you will not make - there should be a gain. S> I am probable not so well understood written by you above but as in same semi-conductor environment from 1 to receive 0 if "and switched has capacity more switching". Means that the signal should not fade. Roughly speaking, on a transistor lock the smaller current for discovery moves, than then can provide opened .