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Hello, pestis, you wrote: DB>>> at good teachers it does not lose interest. DO>> it works till 6-7 years. By the way, it is one of the reasons start why to go to school since seven years. P> I.e. at school specially start to study already after interest to study disappeared? You do not find it a little wrong? Well, probably, this age is selected to start school for other reasons. Business in psychological preparation. 10 years ago led interview, estimated, whether the child is ready to school or there is as early as a year in preparatory group to resemble. Now interviews forbade. Probably, in vain.

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Hello, Dym On, you wrote: DO> And what you do? More low you wrote the same as I, You write that without violence interest at the child does not arise. And in it our main disagreement, in my judgement violence only one of pedagogical tools who should be applied carefully. You do of it the main , without what the child will not have an interest to what except review of animated cartoons. In the light of considered article can seem that a problem that to children from an initial post applied violence insufficiently. But it is a vicious circle, the more violence, the it is less than interest to something, except review of animated cartoons. Personally I am inclined to consider that to these children have been applied violence much more, than the problem in it is required also. But can be and something another, for example I know a family in which there is seriously enough a pressing of the growing up daughter, but thus she feels perfectly, is cheerful, it is healthy  and is ready  everybody (as it turns out at school for example). But there generally in a family so much such storm of emotions, a drive and energy that to them with normal moral measures to approach difficult. Any . Occupations at it are not present, at school with study not so, but  she will suffer from shortage of money (a question only in methods of their obtaining) or absence of interest to life.

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P> I   people whom in the childhood parents violently pushed in .  is generally a tin. Expenses on time simply enormous, and the result in 95 % of cases is necessary to nobody . In my opinion, the unique reason to lead the child in  - if it without it basically cannot.

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Hello, pestis, you wrote: P> I   people whom in the childhood parents violently pushed in . As a rule, anything good it did not come to an end, at the majority  beat off love to music on all life. Only some, after some years took the tool in hands and sometimes something played, but anybody from them never did not practise music any more seriously. It is possible to force for something to study the child, at all a problem. But here there will be to the child from it a favor or pleasure, here it is a question. It agree, but there is other moment. These people often are able to work laboriously and it brought it any success. The answer to a question why one become an inveterate drunkard and lose interest to life, and others are not present, does not lie in a plane - thrashed someone in the childhood or not. At the time of when thrashed practically all - became an inveterate drunkard at all less. From it does not rescue neither good formation nor the uttermost illiteracy. At some instant the person breaks also all. He lived with parents or one, in a poor family or in rich, walked on hundred circles or it was brought up by street, forbade it to be rude to parents or not - it is unimportant. That it breaks and as from it to save the children - not clearly.

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Hello, Dym On, you wrote: DO> it is finite, it is interesting to child to look all day long animated cartoons, and a horse-radish not to do. It not so. The healthy child quickly loses interest to review of animated cartoons. To play characters of animated cartoons, to draw sketches, to study in that that characters to it - boringly are able to look interesting, stupidly. DO> to force it is necessary to work. It is necessary that the child worked out self-discipline, worked out a habit to work well. That is it is necessary to do any business well. It is reached only by education, through I "do not want" and I "can not". Made badly - alter. It is necessary to force. It is necessary that the child took pleasure in well made operation. Forcing to do operation, you will bring up only disgust for operation. Even if the child does not break in , as a result you will receive the person to which deeply oppositely that than he is engaged. That is why at us in  too many becomes through a bum? Yes that's it because builders hate to build, architects to project, and programmers to write the code.

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Z> You write that without violence interest at the child does not arise. Generally it is curious as perceive my thoughts associates. Z> and in it our main disagreement, in my judgement violence only one of pedagogical tools who should be applied carefully. Exactly it I also want to tell. A unique disagreement: I consider this tool necessary. Z> you do of it the main , without what the child will not have an interest to what except review of animated cartoons. No. The main  should be internal interest. About what I already wrote http://rsdn.org/forum/education/4308283.1 the Author: Dym On Date: 14.06.11 Violence is the tool for overcoming of some threshold. It is necessary to force to get the hand the child, or to lose gamma or exercises.  mortal, but it needs to be made. And the purpose to clear interest to this boring activity. An example, washing low, plays a violin. At first learn to stand correctly, then correctly to hold the tool, a bow etc. And gradually learn to different dashes. At first , then simply to lead a bow, on half, on third, etc. Well certainly any unpretentious songs. Cheerful it is not enough, she would not like to play these dashes, but it would be desirable to play a violin. All changed, when at it the first time turned out a dash (is called ) in a song about the Marmot. After that she began to be engaged itself - will not tear off. But before it it was necessary . Clearly? I speak not about interest to game on a violin, and about interest to boring and tiresome exercises. Z> in the light of considered article can seem that a problem that to children from an initial post applied violence insufficiently. But it is a vicious circle, the more violence, the it is less than interest to something, except review of animated cartoons. Personally I am inclined to consider that to these children have been applied violence much more, than the problem in it is required also. By the way, quite probably. But only that violence does not concern pedagogical process.

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Hello, Dym On, you wrote: Z>> You write that without violence interest at the child does not arise. DO> generally it is curious as perceive my thoughts associates. Because you write: Certainly, it is interesting to child to look all day long animated cartoons, and a horse-radish not to do.... To force it is necessary to work. It is necessary that the child worked out self-discipline, worked out a habit to work well. That is it is necessary to do any business well. It is reached only by education, through I "do not want" and I "can not". Made badly - alter. It is necessary to force. It is necessary that the child took pleasure in well made operation.

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Hello, Dym On, you wrote: DO> That is at the good formed hard-working parents who transited the childhood-adolescence-youth in the USSR, the blockheads getting progressive liberal German education which also not all mastered grew. What improbable horror. The situation is banal and sucked round from different directions: in  unemployment and a socialism. Children do not see perspectives which educates because no perspectives are present. That to sense of 12 years to go to school, then as early as 6 years at university if under the total it is necessary to work as the cashier in . And the child, actually, perfectly feels it watching of parents and associates.

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Hello, De-Bill, you wrote: P>> I   people whom in the childhood parents violently pushed in . DB> Muzykalka is generally a tin. Expenses on time simply enormous, and the result in 95 % of cases is necessary to nobody . In my opinion, the unique reason to lead the child in  - if it without it basically cannot. Well it is not pleasant , we take skis. At school/University of all drove on skis, the classic,  a course, 10-20-30, offsets on  in March, etc. the School is finished, everything, hammered. Only years through 5 somebody gets from a closet of a ski and finds out that there is it too cool. I suspect as with  the same history.

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Hello, Ziaw, you wrote: Z> It agree, but there is other moment. These people often are able to work laboriously and it brought it any success. And whether brought it this happiness? Sometimes you look at the person which laboriously works and it would be desirable to ask: "Well and for whom you so are spoiled?"

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P> Well it is not pleasant , we take skis. At school/University of all drove on skis, the classic,  a course, 10-20-30, offsets on  in March, etc. the School is finished, everything, hammered. Only years through 5 somebody gets from a closet of a ski and finds out that there is it too cool. I suspect as with  the same history. Well, the physical culture is at least useful in school-university volume. Though, I for that the physical culture was an open classroom for those who walks in sports sections. In University and was: it was necessary to bring help and to hand over time in a semester specifications.

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Hello, pestis, you wrote: P> And whether brought it this happiness? Sometimes you look at the person which laboriously works and it would be desirable to ask: "Well and for whom you so are spoiled?" Can yes, and can is not present. Inability to work and earn is capable to make unfortunate.

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SVZ>>> In Omsk, under the instruction of local department of formation, it is forbidden to put twains (There is who from Omsk? Can confirm?), say, badly influence a self-estimation of pupils. PD>> from Omsk. Something heard about the prohibition to put twains in the first class, whether in Omsk, whether is not present. About that. That generally forbade - did not hear. SVZ> at estimation elementary school at all do not put. This business known. SVZ> and here about it is a question of classes with 5 and is higher. On me so sounds wildly. SVZ> But considering, as for the second year now it is not accepted to leave, quite clear pattern - though a carcass appears, though a stuffed animal to let out from school not to spend budget money. Put and still as. I can show not one twain about 2 and 3 classes of elementary school 0). Brings sometimes when does not understand the job and that the teacher wanted. It is direct in a diary and in an electronic diary stand are double.

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Hello, De-Bill, you wrote: DB> Well, the physical culture is at least useful in school-university volume. Though, I for that the physical culture was an open classroom for those who walks in sports sections. In University and was: it was necessary to bring help and to hand over time in a semester specifications. We here not about favor , and about influence of violence on motivation.

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DO>> It works till 6-7 years. By the way, it is one of the reasons start why to go to school since seven years. P> I.e. at school specially start to study already after interest to study disappeared? You do not find it a little wrong? At school start to study when the period of an infantile amnesia, it approximately comes to an end 7 years. To begin training it is simply senseless earlier.

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Hello, De-Bill, you wrote: M>> And if it is at some instant interesting to the child  to do and to study in nothing? DB> an avitaminosis, excessive loading, emotional burning-off, settling teachers, the crappy school, irritating schoolmates, near parents. A heap of the reasons why can seem that is interesting nothing to the child. Actually, it extremely rarely happens, that generally it was interesting nothing to the child. Yes about it is interesting generally nothing to speech and does not go I think. We tell, drawing is interesting to it. But what to do with mathematics, language native, language foreign, physics, chemistry, geography, history and still 5 other subjects? On which to it generally .

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Hello, De-Bill, you wrote: DB> At you how many children? They permanently look animated cartoons? If yes, why you did not except at them a pad, the computer, the TV set? After you excepted it at them interests and did not appear? Children differ from adults. It is average adult muzhik to lie interesting a belly up in front of the TV set. To children is not present. They find interest practically in all. Frequently simply enough somewhere to help or prompt. If to take away animated cartoons -  starts to stick to parents who have affairs and hobbies, and they are not connected completely not to pedagogics hours per day, with it and leaving primitive from a series "fed gave to drink changed clothes to sleep laid down" already above a roof suffices.

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DO>> That is at the good formed hard-working parents who transited the childhood-adolescence-youth in the USSR, the blockheads getting progressive liberal German education which also not all mastered grew. P> what improbable horror. The situation is banal and sucked round from different directions: in  unemployment and a socialism. Children do not see perspectives which educates because no perspectives are present. That to sense of 12 years to go to school, then as early as 6 years at university if under the total it is necessary to work as the cashier in . And the child, actually, perfectly feels it watching of parents and associates. Strictly speaking, there speech about parents who work not as cashiers in .

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Hello, TMU_1, you wrote: TMU> Strictly speaking, there speech about parents who work not as cashiers in . In Germany the difference in incomes of the cashier and  the engineer is not especially great.

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Hello, V. Zudin, you wrote: SVZ> At estimation elementary school at all do not put. This business known. SVZ> and here about it is a question of classes with 5 and is higher. On me so sounds wildly. SVZ> But considering, as for the second year now it is not accepted to leave, quite clear pattern - though a carcass appears, though a stuffed animal to let out from school not to spend budget money. Asked now the colleagues having children-schoolboys. Put.

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Hello, Pavel Dvorkin, you wrote: SVZ>> At estimation elementary school at all do not put. This business known. SVZ>> and here about it is a question of classes with 5 and is higher. On me so sounds wildly. SVZ>> But considering, as for the second year now it is not accepted to leave, quite clear pattern - though a carcass appears, though a stuffed animal to let out from school not to spend budget money. PD> asked now the colleagues having children-schoolboys. Put. Thanks! Confused that the teachers who have arrived from Omsk broadcast about it. As the information first-hand. One turns out or meant, and blurted out another, or embellished, expanding on all area the initiative started at separately taken school, or the initiative  is, but on places it simply sent wood. Well or yet it came to all  craze. In general, it is clear nothing, we will watch.

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Hello, Ziaw, you wrote: Z> Hello, Michael7, you wrote: M>> And if it is at some instant interesting to the child  to do and to study in nothing? Z> it is normal that parents push into it of knowledge/abilities more than it is capable to digest. The eructation began. Can be and such, but it is not normal, and is just normal because to study, generally speaking it is not so interesting. It is normally interesting to start to study, and here then it is long and tiresome enough work before significant results are reached.

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Hello, De-Bill, you wrote: M>> And if it is at some instant interesting to the child  to do and to study in nothing? DB> an avitaminosis, excessive loading, emotional burning-off, settling teachers, the crappy school, irritating schoolmates, near parents. A heap of the reasons why can seem that is interesting nothing to the child. Actually, it extremely rarely happens, that generally it was interesting nothing to the child. You name the reasons which can take place, but not as the main things. Well also prompt, how to near parents, with crappy school and settling teachers all the same to grow up normal children? One recipe is:  to force children to study. Your recipe for near parents? M>> earlier parents could force, including rather rigid methods, DB> to Force to think, remember, understand rigid methods it is impossible. The such works only with stupid monotonous activity, and that, during the certain moments and in certain limits. As a maximum, it is possible to force to sit stupidly at desktop and to look in the book with problems. To force to understand and solve the task it is impossible. I will agree that for achievement of the present heights there should be all the same an interest. But also force parents too can, for example, correctly organizing a daily routine at children and achieved its performance. At least banal "yet you will not learn lessons you will go for a walk" (you will not play, you will not look at animated cartoons etc.) M>> and now divorced , fighters for the right of children to grow degenerates. DB> you personally with what raise the children? Whether strongly you hindered  by justice in it? My sister raises a two. And yes hinders, at least with that creates fear and encourages children to knock on parents about violation of "the rights". But here against them that being at war with parents helps,  do not stammer at "the rights of children" in children's homes: it is very useful to tell for preventive maintenance that there happens to children.