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Topic: Education lockup

The most interesting post from Yana Frank Nenavist to parents and unwillingness to study and work. I will result it here completely We 25 years ago arrived here, and there was at us a set of friends and acquaintances about our age. The majority or had small children, or they in any near future were born. Accordingly now to all these children of 25-30 years, and it is interesting to watch that with whom became. Observation the first: behind several few exceptions all these people (who is a question of those arrived 25 years ago, my comment) have higher education, and not bad professionally took place. Not all work on the received speciality. But work all. And all life, and it is successful. Love the operations, tell that at them there interesting, etc. Children they were engaged, rejoicing that here for this purpose there are more possibilities. To tutors leaded, on any music, chess, sports sections, languages. Many desperately saved money that children could "be learned where want" Though in Germany formation free, or nearly so the free. But parents hinted that if who wants to England or to America, in abrupt high school - they want, that also this possibility at their children was. As a result we here sat down and counted, and it turned out that 90 % from these children did not end a grammar school, 80 % even left "high school" (Realschule) ahead of time therefore by it it was hardly included "Hauptschule", it is analog of that at us was after the termination of 8 classes. The same of 80 % do not know that they want to do in (professional) future. And some simply fairly say that do not want anything. And still a wish couple sound, but they absurd, and it is not clear, as they should come true, if for their implementation does not become any . But it is all all right - I about it already wrote. I do not know, how so it turned out and what to tell. Me such frightens and afflicts, because I would like, that at all these children all was good, and to live it it was easy and interesting. But the described circumstances do not promote it. And the main thing - there is no saying why so it turned out. The second observation: counting, I terribly was surprised that kind 30 % from them became the present alcoholics or addicts. Mean such at whom really serious problem with it, and it is necessary to throw and be treated in a serious way somehow (some already on some times pushed (. Thus the narcotism meets rarely, and here  -  it is a lot of. Two from this circle already died of drugs, without living till 30 years. And one guy perished in failure which itself and made - it went very drunk at the wheel on . Thus at all these children parents - "not at all". Here absolutely. Speak. Start what to drink, looking at parents (more often), or that predisposition is descended. And so are families where to alcohol the absolute indifference reigns, anybody there the alcoholic was not, normal doctors, lawyers, engineers and other, all life got used to study, and then to work, and to rejoice in life to simple things. And here at children it turned out somehow so a lot of stress and so few pleasures that they seized for the such. And still I have a third observation where I see coincidence. At several parents of the relation with children were not added absolutely. Not that that they there swore (who does not swear at children-teenagers?) Or complained of absence of interests, the bad study, and a disorder in a children's room. No, I about such stories. When between children and parents the present, fierce hatred. Unimaginable insults, roughnesses, and sometimes and . At someone already both police involved, and to the child gave the chance to lodge in a youth hostel, that not at parents because there the heat reached to very terrible. And so - all who in this situation appeared are there were parents, which so wanted that child, so it wanted what not to describe words. Not simply wanted, planned and rejoiced. It from those parents who already for years writhed in hysterics. And the baby did not turn out. And they could not without tears generally on any  to look. And they tried, and were treated. And then at them it turned out, and they sobbed from affection. They sobbed with happiness, as in most  a serial. So waited, so wanted, so rejoiced. When the baby appeared, there all has been prepared, so it is beautiful, so it is lovely. And they so loved it, so loved. Directly such some years of uninterrupted euphoria which directly did not come to an end. Each time when speech came about these children, in each phrase there was "our happiness, our charm"and"we so are happy, already so much years transited, and all of us cannot come round for pleasure that it at us is" and so on. All for years told history about how they dreamed of this child as waited as are grateful to destiny that it at last turned out. And I somehow cannot catch, when the pendulum was swung in other side. But then suddenly euphoria ceased. Children still were "our happiness", but to it was added:" Well here - at ours  character "is gashed. And everything when to children was years till 8-10 became rather noticeable. Here already friends were surprised: and that these sweet children mum beat it also such awful words call? And that it they so to the father are rude - we at all did not know that such happens. And when it was 11-12, already there was a catastrophe. And to 16 catastrophe already reached universal scales - the justice has already been involved , serious problems already began. Which even psychologists of concept have no how to solve. Why so? ? Spoiled? Such blind f looked at the children, what problems in an emphasis did not see, when still it was possible to correct all? And here all after all - normal, good people. And all wanted as better. Both tried, and raised, as could. Even more than an average tried! That is at the good formed hard-working parents who transited the childhood-adolescence-youth in the USSR, the blockheads getting progressive liberal German education which also not all mastered grew. And further it does a tremendous output: As a whole a simple way: left school, got any education (on is mandatory academic, here is also excellent practical), started to try operation, in due course selected to itself a congenial employment, started to make the plans and the life - somehow here this scenario turns out at minority. I here think and there can be this scenario generally somehow itself got rid, and we and did not note? There can be a truth that in 10 years all of us will be replaced with robots, the state with all distributes the unconditional income that there was no war. And absolutely other things and interests become valuable? Or can already be any quite real forms of life and a survival in a society, normal, recognized and nothing bad which in any way do not include study were born on light. Operation? (And what then?) Can be simple all of us lagged behind life, and we can not recognize this way on which they  go. And it, maybe, through ten years will be norm? And our representation how to the person  - becomes ancient and ridiculous? Funny, yes? To Leave school, get education, to start to work it a simple way which turns out at minority. And what then the difficult? And at the majority what way turns out? To throw school and a horse-radish not to do, dangle on a neck of parents, in expectation of inspiration? Yana surrenders to me confuses cause and effect. On the children, on children of friends whom permanently I see, analyzing the course of life, I come to a conclusion that, at first, training it always violence. Finally violence over self. That is it is necessary to force. At first the child parents force to study - learn to study, then it forces itself(himself) when the understanding what for it comes it is necessary to do. Secondly, training without education does not happen. These are essential components of formation. Besides parents, then - at first bring up themselves. And, thirdly, at training it is necessary to pay much attention to a cultural component. Absence of culture is a source notorious , a brothel, delay, etc. If not to fulfill these three points, then to the child it will be very difficult. To bring up to it itself all the same it is necessary, parents are not eternal. But it will be what is the time missed. Therefore if you love children, it is necessary to force, and it is not necessary to be sorry at all. On mine children from Yana post not , them at all did not love, for them felt sorry, and the pity grew up blockheads.

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SVZ> Authors of a technique are torn a little off from a reality. A little? On me so completely. In a class of my low the child of the teacher  studies sew schools, but other joint venture (structural subdividing). And so, it imparted experience. Before becoming the parent of the pupil, i.e. to look at homework on the other hand, to it and to a head did not come how much they idiotic. After a year of the parent  it removed a part of jobs for the class, well and generally corrected the program. As she said, when them learned on courses, all looked logically enough and reasonably.

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Re: Education lockup

Hello, V. Zudin, you wrote: SVZ> In Omsk, under the instruction of local department of formation, it is forbidden to put twains (There is who from Omsk? Can confirm?), say, badly influence a self-estimation of pupils. From Omsk. Something heard about the prohibition to put twains in the first class, whether in Omsk, whether is not present. About that. That generally forbade - did not hear.

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DO> On the children, on children of friends whom permanently I see, analyzing the course of life, I come to a conclusion that, at first, training it always violence. Finally violence over self. That is it is necessary to force. At first the child parents force to study - learn to study, then it forces itself(himself) when the understanding what for it comes it is necessary to do. Secondly, training without education does not happen. These are essential components of formation. Besides parents, then - at first bring up themselves. And, thirdly, at training it is necessary to pay much attention to a cultural component. Absence of culture is a source notorious , a brothel, delay, etc. DO> If not to fulfill these three points, then to the child it will be very difficult. To bring up to it itself all the same it is necessary, parents are not eternal. But it will be what is the time missed. Therefore if you love children, it is necessary to force, and it is not necessary to be sorry at all. On mine children from Yana post not , them at all did not love, for them felt sorry, and the pity grew up blockheads. Violently ! Training without violence does not happen. Moreover, the family and further a class at school is should be model of an adult society. In particular, in a society for law violation punishment follows. Both in a family and at school for faults punishment should follow. Otherwise the child does not learn to live in a society correctly. Forgot to add. In the USSR this most simple way was absolutely traditional for almost all people. And deviations from this way were rejected by a society. Roughly speaking, the simple way to lives, as well as ideas, soared in air and was perceived practically  as correct. As the American dream in due time.

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Re: Education lockup

Hello, Pavel Dvorkin, you wrote: SVZ>> In Omsk, under the instruction of local department of formation, it is forbidden to put twains (There is who from Omsk? Can confirm?), say, badly influence a self-estimation of pupils. PD> from Omsk. Something heard about the prohibition to put twains in the first class, whether in Omsk, whether is not present. About that. That generally forbade - did not hear. At estimation elementary school at all do not put. This business known. And here about it is a question of classes with 5 and is higher. On me so sounds wildly. But considering, as for the second year now it is not accepted to leave, quite clear pattern - though a carcass appears, though a stuffed animal to let out from school not to spend budget money.

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Re: Education lockup

Hello, Dym On, you wrote: DO> it is amusing, yes? To Leave school, get education, to start to work it a simple way which turns out at minority. And what then the difficult? And at the majority what way turns out? To throw school and a horse-radish not to do, dangle on a neck of parents, in expectation of inspiration? Yana surrenders to me confuses cause and effect. Difficult is for example at Yanukovych, Putin or Dopy with Gepoj. Take any known character - for unusual results the unusual way is necessary.

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Hello, V. Zudin, you wrote: SVZ> Hello, Pavel Dvorkin, you wrote: SVZ>>> In Omsk, under the instruction of local department of formation, it is forbidden to put twains (There is who from Omsk? Can confirm?), say, badly influence a self-estimation of pupils. PD>> from Omsk. Something heard about the prohibition to put twains in the first class, whether in Omsk, whether is not present. About that. That generally forbade - did not hear. SVZ> at estimation elementary school at all do not put. This business known. Yes that there, the same hogwash, in the first class of my small mug draw, or stickers, type "a red smilie a smile downwards", "yellow - ", "green - a usual smile". Children - not idiots, all perfectly understand that it means.

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Hello, V. Zudin, you wrote: SVZ> Outputs do. And what outputs here can be? Normal modern formation. Not from under sticks, it should be interesting to the child, the task not to bring and to train. And, generally, school in life not the main thing if only the person good was also the person harmonic. Looking at system from user side (in the sense that the parent) is forced to recognize that all correctly do also Russia too to it comes.

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Hello, El Camino Real, you wrote: ECR> Hello, V. Zudin, you wrote: SVZ>> Outputs do. ECR> and what outputs here can be? Normal modern formation. Not from under sticks, it should be interesting to the child, the task not to bring and to train. And if it is at some instant interesting to the child  to do and to nothing to study? Earlier parents could force, including rather rigid methods, and now divorced , fighters for the right of children to grow degenerates. It is necessary though here a little to understand, sometimes laziness is there can be a sign of any disease.

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Hello, LaptevVV, you wrote: LVV> In particular, in a society for law violation punishment follows. LVV> both in a family and at school for faults punishment should follow. Now parents the rights to punish children, also as well as actively deprive school. Up to a criminal act and deprivation of the parent rights.

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LVV>> In particular, in a society for law violation punishment follows. LVV>> both in a family and at school for faults punishment should follow. M> now parents the rights to punish children, also as well as actively deprive school. Up to a criminal act and deprivation of the parent rights. I about it know. During my time some time was to stand punishment, for example, in a corner. For example, when I was 4 years old, and the sister two, we to anybody told nothing and left in a city to walk for all day. Hours 10 walked. For us already were going to search, and we came... Estimate, in the modern world the child of 4 years falls down from a court yard with the little sister? The hard cases - the father removes an officer belt... Not , but flogging threat - it quickly in feeling resulted. But similar punishments - approximately to 4-5 classes, then somehow already learned I here in GDR of cores. So there for faults of children simply at 24 o'clock sent the father with a family reversely in the Union - Bundles does not allow to tell lies, he too lived. Therefore children should know that such offense and what punishment for it will be.

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Hello, V. Zudin, you wrote: SVZ> Sometimes you will reflect that the Domestic tyranny and some generations living together, not too badly. Here did not understand. You are ready to live in one house with the mother-in-law and to obey the father-in-law or you already the father-in-law and want, that the son-in-law obeyed you?

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Hello, Michael7, you wrote: M> And if it is at some instant interesting to the child  to do and to study in nothing? That parents push into it of knowledge/abilities more than it is capable to digest normally it. The eructation began.

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M> And if it is at some instant interesting to the child  to do and to study in nothing? An avitaminosis, excessive loading, emotional burning-off, settling teachers, the crappy school, irritating schoolmates, near parents. A heap of the reasons why can seem that is interesting nothing to the child. Actually, it extremely rarely happens, that generally it was interesting nothing to the child. M> earlier parents could force, including rather rigid methods, to Force to think, remember, understand rigid methods it is impossible. Such that works only with stupid monotonous activity, and, during the certain moments and in certain limits. As a maximum, it is possible to force to sit stupidly at desktop and to look in the book with problems. To force to understand and solve the task it is impossible. M> and now divorced , fighters for the right of children to grow degenerates. You personally with what raise the children? Whether strongly you hindered  by justice in it?

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Hello, El Camino Real, you wrote: SVZ>> Outputs do. ECR> and what outputs here can be? Normal modern formation. Not from under sticks, it should be interesting to the child, the task not to bring and to train. And, generally, school in life not the main thing if only the person good was also the person harmonic. Looking at system from user side (in the sense that the parent) is forced to recognize that all correctly do also Russia too to it comes. From my belltower it looks so: Earlier the state was principal (only thing) the employer. Therefore it was put in formation, so to say, for itself. Now at us, type market economy to whom it is necessary, that let and pays. The state on the sly withdraws from formation. You want quality education - receive itself. It is presented in a beautiful wrapper supposedly a postindustrial society, independent training, self-realization and so forth And upon school turns to such group of the prolonged day that something to occupy missing teenagers, while parents on operation. If they, thus, to something learn - remarkably. I assume that the school will be financed ever less. Already it is now declared that the mandatory program will include only the most necessary minimum (it from ). If there is a desire to learn more,  on optional occupations. I think, board introduction for optional occupations will be following step. But free education at us is formal is. (trollface). Badly that now loading on schoolboys (in hours) big enough, takes away the lion's share of day. On time self-training remains not too much. In general, we will look. And from an initial topic I watch problems on the senior, 9-klassnike. All word for word.

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SVZ> From my belltower it looks so: SVZ> Earlier the state was the principal (unique) employer. Therefore it was put in formation, so to say, for itself. It was absolutely clear Earlier, who is necessary to the country and in what proportions. People in the industry were necessary, the school and prepared them. Now such amount of turners, mechanics, engineers, scientific is not so necessary, and who is necessary - absolutely not clearly. SVZ> now at us, type market economy to whom it is necessary, that let and pays. The state on the sly withdraws from formation. You want quality education - receive itself. But nevertheless till now in big cities there is the hugest choice of directions for qualitative free education. I see schoolboys who free of charge are engaged in aviamodelling, , FROM, dances, mathematics, programming, the circuitry, any things connected to biology and botany. But here, naturally, the help of parents which recognize interests of the child is necessary, find mugs where these interests can be developed, solve a question with delivery to a place. SVZ> it Is presented in a beautiful wrapper supposedly a postindustrial society, independent training, self-realization and so forth Perfectly. Nobody knows that it is interesting to the person, it is better than this person. SVZ> and upon school turns to such group of the prolonged day that something to occupy missing teenagers, while parents on operation. If they, thus, to something learn - remarkably. Unfortunately, so often also it turns out, but the reason not in the bad education program, and in settling teachers who even cannot interest in interesting things. SVZ> I assume that the school will be financed ever less. Already it is now declared that the mandatory program will include only the most necessary minimum (it from ). This minimum is now simply huge. Pupils are really overloaded by this minimum. Thus, to this minimum try to fasten any bosh. I just for that this minimum still to reduce that children studied not 6 days in a week, and 5, and more profound knowledge received on optional occupations on interests.

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M>> And if it is at some instant interesting to the child a horse-radish to do and to study in nothing? DB> an avitaminosis, excessive loading, emotional burning-off, settling teachers, the crappy school, irritating schoolmates, near parents. A heap of the reasons why can seem that is interesting nothing to the child. Actually, it extremely rarely happens, that generally it was interesting nothing to the child. And you read a start post? Observation the first: behind several few exceptions all these people (who is a question of those arrived 25 years ago, my comment) have higher education, and not bad professionally took place. Not all work on the received speciality. But work all. And all life, and it is successful. Love the operations, tell that at them there interesting, etc. Children they were engaged, rejoicing that here for this purpose there are more possibilities. To tutors leaded, on any music, chess, sports sections, languages. Many desperately saved money that children could "be learned where want" Though in Germany formation free, or nearly so the free. But parents hinted that if who wants to England or to America, in abrupt high school - they want, that also this possibility at their children was. Excessive loading? Yes, all right. DB> actually, it extremely rarely happens, that generally it was interesting nothing to the child. Certainly, it is interesting to child to look all day long animated cartoons, and a horse-radish not to do. M>> earlier parents could force, including rather rigid methods, DB> to Force to think, remember, understand rigid methods it is impossible. To force it is necessary to work. It is necessary that the child worked out self-discipline, worked out a habit to work well. That is it is necessary to do any business well. It is reached only by education, through I "do not want" and I "can not". Made badly - alter. It is necessary to force. It is necessary that the child took pleasure in well made operation.

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DO> And you the start post read? DO> excessive loading? Yes, all right. The start post read, but at all I do not see any bases to it to trust, therefore answered the specific message. DB>> actually, it extremely rarely happens, that generally it was interesting nothing to the child. DO> it is finite, it is interesting to child to look all day long animated cartoons, and a horse-radish not to do. At you how many children? They permanently look animated cartoons? If yes, why you did not except at them a pad, the computer, the TV set? After you excepted it at them interests and did not appear? Children differ from adults. It is average adult muzhik to lie interesting a belly up in front of the TV set. To children is not present. They find interest practically in all. Frequently simply enough somewhere to help or prompt. DO> to force it is necessary to work. It is necessary that the child worked out self-discipline, worked out a habit to work well. That is it is necessary to do any business well. It is reached only by education, through I "do not want" and I "can not". Made badly - alter. It is necessary to force. It is necessary that the child took pleasure in well made operation. It is impossible to do all affairs well. And business, which core for the child, interesting, it and so will try to make as much as possible well. If during time to it to help and prompt.

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DO> And you the start post read? DO> to tutors leaded, on any music, chess, sports sections, languages. Many desperately saved money that children could "be learned where want" Though in Germany formation free, or nearly so the free. But parents hinted that if who wants to England or to America, in abrupt high school - they want, that also this possibility at their children was. DO> excessive loading? Yes, all right. By the way, re-read your text. Quite possibly, as excessive loading. Ambitions of parents killed all interest and ambitions at children.

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Hello, Dym On, you wrote: DB>> To tutors leaded, on any music, chess, sports sections, languages. Many desperately saved money that children could "be learned where want" DO> Excessive loading? Yes, all right. The standard of excessive loading is Generally resulted. In addition  to children of the plans "go to study in expensive oversea high school! We made for this purpose so much!" . Personally I see a problem that parents molded ideal children, this such refined violence it is difficult to them to resist. DB>> actually, it extremely rarely happens, that generally it was interesting nothing to the child. DO> it is finite, it is interesting to child to look all day long animated cartoons, and a horse-radish not to do. Animated cartoons - dependence. As well as other enumerated dependences (alcohol, drugs) it arises from any personal problems. I do not eliminate that the author wrote truth about the circle of contacts, it is widespread enough problem, but not so, is how much described.

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DO>> Excessive loading? Yes, all right. Z> the standard of excessive loading is Generally resulted. Aha. I somehow asked the wife to count an amount of mandatory hours of the son (school, , the tutor, ), without the registration of time for sports sections and homeworks. It appeared much more 40 hours per week.

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