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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, , you wrote: > it confused with B-29. But as well as in case of Fau-2, copying not became necessary further. > Actually the author of the report also says that in aircraft both in rocket production and in atomic branch copying quickly ended, All is true. And very much can be in hope on too and the decision was accepted. > and in programming - is not present. And it was a false step. And here it is unobvious that it would manage to be made. Without achievement of comparable level in microelectronics copying did not end. And to copy the software, and to copy in literal sense it was very convenient.... <<RSDN@Home 1.2.0 alpha 5 rev. 1495>>

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, Glory, you wrote: I Feel a smell of the expert in types . Sorts of nuts I do not understand. What for you try to flaunt these most  with sorts? Write at once, a scoop - shit! Or that there in your circle it is fashionable. And questions to you will not be.... <<RSDN@Home 1.2.0 alpha 5 rev. 1495>>

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, , you wrote: > the lesson of mastering of OS of EU is clear: it is possible, and sometimes it is necessary to master separate samples of the foreign software, but it is impossible to follow the road constant following behind them. >... Well, VM/SP was quite to itself the then.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, Privalov, you wrote: P> About EU-1840 everyone there and the Spark-1030 and furthermore "Search" I simply try not . Well, 1840 was my the first , except for the black-and-white display, the machine, as the machine. As now I remember, with it I began operation with  a boot sector in which result disk drives from 360  (40 tracks) turned in 720  (80 tracks), and MS-DOS with such diskettes was loaded. K till now I store Probably, on a case of total importo-replacement:D

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, Andrey Ushakov, you wrote: > Well, 1840 was my the first , except for the black-and-white display, the machine, as the machine. Absolutely terrible keypad. Mice were not. However, last - not such a lack. More likely, mouse presence on some 1841 was a lack. A rusty ball I will remember all life. > As now I remember, with it I began operation with  a boot sector in which result disk drives from 360  (40 tracks) turned in 720  (80 tracks), and MS-DOS with such diskettes was loaded. K till now I store Probably, on a case of total importo-replacement:D And we used the virtual disk drives. I remember, from two physical it was possible to create 4 logical. I at that time on 1840 only to look came. And the first "" "Spark-226" became my. So about the loader I learned a bit later. And in case of total  it is necessary to pass to "Mir-3", the Analyst and R-technology.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, , you wrote: > Actually the author of the report also says that in aircraft both in rocket production and in atomic branch copying quickly ended, and in programming - is not present. And it was a false step. Copying there ended because originals became inaccessible. And in all remaining branches proceeded, computers in this sense differed nothing from remaining branches. It is essential line of a planned economy.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, , you wrote: > Yes, I did not begin to spread them. It seems that young it is uninteresting. For them programmers 80 - like savages with onions and arrows. And they also are savages, the elementary things could not master.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, Privalov, you wrote: P> And with it there was here such drive in volume 5, more precisely, 2 plates on 2,5. One removable, the second - is not present. P> Image: nakopitel-sm5400-2.jpeg This picture does not give representation about its sizes, the youth can think that it can be located on a palm, well or on two. Actually its width - half-meter:

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, qwertyuiop, you wrote: Q> Copying there ended because originals became inaccessible. Good, but it is necessary to add thought that originals which should be copied in atomic and rocket area it became simple not - domestic were up to standard of the best. Q> and in all remaining branches proceeded, computers in this sense differed nothing from remaining branches. It is essential line of a planned economy. Planned economy limitation, repeatedly you described, and is shown in civil industries, in  was a little not so.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, pagid, you wrote: Q>> Copying there ended because originals became inaccessible. P> good, but it is necessary to add thought that originals which should be copied in atomic and rocket area it became simple not - domestic were up to standard of the best. About the atomic I do not know, and in rocket hardly. -1 and could not launch, even in spite of the fact that it conceded to "Saturn" on load-carrying capacity. Q>> and in all remaining branches proceeded, computers in this sense differed nothing from remaining branches. It is essential line of a planned economy. P> planned economy limitation, repeatedly you described, and is shown in civil industries, in  was a little not so. Here therefore was not so because samples for copying could not be received.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, qwertyuiop, you wrote: Q> This picture does not give representation about its sizes, the youth can think that it can be located on a palm, well or on two. Actually its width - half-meter: Q> Image: tab2-1.jpg Yes, perhaps. It was necessary to me to lay out this video at once. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtK_DR2W1wM

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, pestis, you wrote: P> And they also are savages, the elementary things could not master. Whether it is impossible to tear?

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, , you wrote: Alternatives to cloning was not. Domestic development not bad looked on Science and Life pages, and in a reality there were tens scientific personnel which  among themselves on any trifle and have not been interested absolutely not in a batch production. Yes what far to walk, business trip from scientific research institute on factory was perceived as the link. As a result the choice at the Central Committee was idle time, either to clone IBM, or to remain with three tens that is hardware incompatible computers, at which not that architecture, length of byte the different. The unique made alternative was to select from genre  is directive one architecture, we tell von Neumann RISC on the eight-bit bus. For those times more than disputable, but RISC the processor it was possible to let out the decision in huge circulations gradually improving technical process and increasing productivity and reliability of the separate chip with saving of reverse compatibility. In due course it was possible to increase length of the bus to 16-32-64 bits with full save of reverse compatibility. In addition the cheap and stable processor can be used everywhere, from industrial controlers, for . And for serious machines to use 2^N processors. With development of technologies these processors would become in the natural evolutionary image kernels on one crystal. At the same time and parallel programming would tighten.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, pestis, you wrote: Something at you all mixed up. P> either to clone IBM, or to remain with three tens that is hardware incompatible computers, at which not that architecture, length of byte the different. Any bytes to IBM was not, absolutely. P> the Unique made alternative was to select from genre  is directive one architecture, we tell von Neumann RISC on the eight-bit bus. For those times the decision more than disputable, What for then you offer the disputable decision? And especially what for you offer any eight-bit buses. P> but RISC the processor could be let out in huge circulations gradually improving technical process and increasing productivity and reliability of the separate chip with saving of reverse compatibility. And RISC' as the formulated concept then was not. P> in due course it was possible to increase length of the bus to 16-32-64 bits with full save of reverse compatibility. In addition the cheap and stable processor can be used everywhere, from industrial controlers, for . And for serious machines to use 2^N processors. With development of technologies these processors would become in the natural evolutionary image kernels on one crystal. At the same time and parallel programming would tighten. Brad mares gray, already then were necessary to the country both supercomputers, and microcontrollers. Not simply so copied both IBM-360 and DEC PDP-11, and intel 8080 c soon after that, and BESM-6 continued to let out and more many only. You suggest to create and develop any one architecture, so and apparently microprocessor though at the moment of decision-making on copying anybody and did not reflect on them.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, Privalov, you wrote: whether P> It is impossible to tear? It is possible, why it is impossible. 1. Programming languages. With rare exception type of a C and Lisp from the modern point of view it is a pitch gloom. Algol, Kobol, the BASIC, the Hell, the Fortran 2. Standards. Almost all of them , , are unreasoned and unsuitable for . It is Enough to recall ASN1, teletypes, a G-code and RFC epoch of "paper letters". 3. A software. All inconvenient and unreasoned from the point of view of architecture. It is enough to recall RCS, P-CAD, M4, sh, ed and generally unix. It if inside not to look and if to glance there at the best structured programming, and noodles from goto are faster. 4. Concepts centralized , mainframes, supercomputers, architecture it is horror flying. 5. The approach to project management naive, one only printout of source codes on a paper for archive, without speaking already about  in log.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, qwertyuiop, you wrote: Q> About the atomic I do not know, and in rocket hardly. -1 and could not launch, even in spite of the fact that it conceded to "Saturn" on load-carrying capacity. Unless it is military projects? Americans spent for the lunar program in times more. And at us blinded -1 from this that was. Q> here therefore was not so because samples for copying could not be received. The difference was that for military branches fundamental things - a science were put in expensive and giving return in many years, . And civil yes, copied, often without hesitating to buy technologies and the equipment.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, pestis, you wrote: P> It is possible, why it is impossible. P> 1. Programming languages. With rare exception type of a C and Lisp from the modern point of view it is a pitch gloom. Algol, Kobol, the BASIC, the Hell, the Fortran That with the Fortran and Kobolom not so? Till now are quite successfully used. The people are informed on a rake, in them present. The software written on the Fortran and Kobole, works as decades. Till now it is actively sawn. The nightmare is PL/1. So it now in few places is used. The author of a subject now comes and tells that I am wrong. P> 2. Standards. Almost all of them , , are unreasoned and unsuitable for . It is Enough to recall ASN1, teletypes, a G-code and RFC epoch of "paper letters". However, these "unsuitable"  for some reason implemented. And how it was necessary? At once to do the 128-bit address for TCP/IP? P> 3. A software. All inconvenient and unreasoned from the point of view of architecture. It is enough to recall RCS, P-CAD, M4, sh, ed and generally unix. It if inside not to look and if to glance there at the best structured programming, and noodles from goto are faster. And how it was necessary? What software thought over from the point of view of architecture? P> 4. Concepts centralized , mainframes, supercomputers, architecture it is horror flying. And what alternative? P> 5. The approach to project management naive, one only printout of source codes on a paper for archive, without speaking already about  in log. To read "Mythical cheloveko-month" to an enlightenment.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, pagid, you wrote: P> No bytes to IBM existing, absolutely. And addressing was not, aha. P>> the Unique made alternative was to select from genre  is directive one architecture, we tell von Neumann RISC on the eight-bit bus. For those times the decision more than disputable, P> What for then you offer the disputable decision? And especially what for you offer any eight-bit buses. Because it is UNIQUE made architecture on which it was possible to stake. The USSR had quite finite resources and not so many programmers, therefore the uniform architecture allowing  both the code and knowledge was a survival question. In a real history programmers riveted incompatible variations same, each 5 years rewriting all from zero at moving on the next copied architecture. It, by the way, was it from the reasons of cloning IBM, it became clear that necessary software not to master. P> And RISC' as the formulated concept then was not. Titles were not, and the concept was always. P> Brad mares gray, already then were necessary to the country both supercomputers, and microcontrollers. Not simply so copied both IBM-360 and DEC PDP-11, and intel 8080 c soon after that, and BESM-6 continued to let out and more many only. The supercomputer from microcontrollers becomes easily, and here microcontrollers from a supercomputer somehow do not turn out. P> you suggest to create and develop any one architecture, so and apparently microprocessor though at the moment of decision-making on copying anybody and did not reflect on them. On what element basis to do the processor it is a question absolutely the tenth. Though on transistors, though on lamps.  architecture allowed to take out from  a processor cabinet on  to replace with its board on the discrete logic with the coordination circuit saving already debugged , needlessly to build new date-center from zero. And then to replace the discrete logic with one chip.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, pestis, you wrote: P> And addressings were not, aha. Addressing was to words, byte addressing it just one of innovations in IBM-360. If it is absolutely exact, on any earlier IBM models tested, but that model has not been strongly spread. P> because it is UNIQUE made architecture on which it was possible to stake. The USSR had quite finite resources and not so many programmers, therefore the uniform architecture allowing  both the code and knowledge was a survival question. Really you consider, what the USSR did not have resources for creation of a computer more than with the 8-digit bus? And that architecture whenever possible it is necessary to unify it just understood. And talk just about unification ways. P> in a real history programmers riveted incompatible variations same, each 5 years rewriting all from zero at moving on the next copied architecture. And what it is architecture copied to IBM-360? P> It, by the way, there was it from the reasons of cloning IBM, it became clear that necessary software not to master. Certainly. Desire to spare on development of a system software one of the reasons. P> the supercomputer from microcontrollers becomes easily, and here microcontrollers from a supercomputer somehow do not turn out. Do not become. It now from any ARM it is possible to try to blind something high-efficiency then all was not so. P> On what element basis to do the processor it is a question absolutely the tenth. Though on transistors, though on lamps.  architecture allowed to take out from  a processor cabinet on  to replace with its board on the discrete logic with the coordination circuit saving already debugged , needlessly to build new date-center from zero. And then to replace the discrete logic with one chip. No. To replace a cabinet with a chip certainly it is possible, and it can be convenient for continuation of maintenance of an old software. But never in such a way you use all possibilities of new element basis. BESM-6, IBM-360 and PDP-11 do not become the modern computers if them to make on one chip.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, Privalov, you wrote: P> That with the Fortran and Kobolom not so? Till now are quite successfully used. The people are informed on a rake, in them present. The software written on the Fortran and Kobole, works as decades. Till now it is actively sawn. From the point of view "Sciences and Lives" all so. And from the point of view of practising programmers, there is enough enough easily achievable limit of complexity of the project after which it collapses under a body weight. For this reason all necessary software  for a long time rewrote from the Fortran with Kobolom on the modern languages. I at all do not represent that now "actively saw" on the Fortran if all serious calculations do today on GPU, and ancient  the code on GPU is simple so not . P> However, these "unsuitable"  for some reason implemented. Implemented. Perdjachim steam and cheerful dancing on a rake within years 15. Or you forgot problems with incompatibility  which industry solved all 90? P> And how it was necessary? At once to do the 128-bit address for TCP/IP? The variable length address, from 8 bits indefinitely. And generally all problem there because of that that any fan  bits mixed addressing and routing in one field. P> and how it was necessary? What software thought over from the point of view of architecture? A software of the end of 90 beginnings 2000. Compare the same Subversion and RCS, bash and sh, nano and ed. P> And what alternative? Decentralization, the distributed calculations, multitasking and parallelism. Under the total to that also came, now consider on clusters from cheap  gland, instead of on specialized computers with the processor in size with a room. P> to read "Mythical cheloveko-month" to an enlightenment. In 2016 it is read as a naive children's fairy tale. Reasonings about "surgical crews" are especially amusing. I.e. At programmers in IBM was so big problems with information interchange that the Brooks suggested to select own developer of tools in each command.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, pestis, you wrote: P> From the point of view "Sciences and Lives" all so. And from the point of view of practising programmers, there is enough enough easily achievable limit of complexity of the project after which it collapses under a body weight. For this reason all necessary software  for a long time rewrote from the Fortran with Kobolom on the modern languages. On Kobole actively saw, for example, a banking software. I repeatedly wrote that itself read these source codes. The first versions them quitted in 1974. Till now it is used. Also it is any not "the Science and life". It is our reality, 2016. P> I at all do not represent that now "actively saw" on the Fortran if all serious calculations do today on GPU, and ancient  the code on GPU is simple so not . On machines of series IBM/390 or Cray too all calculations on GPU? P> Implemented. Perdjachim steam and cheerful dancing on a rake within years 15. Or you forgot problems with incompatibility  which industry solved all 90? Remind, perhaps. P> the variable length address, from 8 bits indefinitely. And generally all problem there because of that that any fan  bits mixed addressing and routing in one field. In those days one bit of storage how many cost? How it looked, you though  to itself(himself)? What generally memory sizes stood on a computer of those times? P> a software of the end of 90 beginnings 2000. Compare the same Subversion and RCS, bash and sh, nano and ed. Well that is at once it was necessary to begin with architecture of the end 90? I truly understood? And in 70, 80 it was not necessary to program at all? P> decentralization, the distributed calculations, multitasking and parallelism. Under the total to that also came, now consider on clusters from cheap  gland, instead of on specialized computers with the processor in size with a room. At the expense of what? When similar decisions appeared? And before as it was necessary? P>> to Read "Mythical cheloveko-month" to an enlightenment. P> in 2016 it is read as a naive children's fairy tale. Reasonings about "surgical crews" are especially amusing. I.e. at programmers in IBM was so big problems with information interchange that the Brooks suggested to select own developer of tools in each command. So speech goes not about 2016, and about 70 - 80. How the Brooks should project /360? Experience you will not share? The system was projected in 1966.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, Privalov, you wrote: P> On Kobole actively saw, for example, a banking software. I repeatedly wrote that itself read these source codes. The first versions them quitted in 1974. Till now it is used. Also it is any not "the Science and life". It is our reality, 2016. In what it is is specific banks there is this software and what it does? And that appears that this software considers stamps in any poor regional bank somewhere in Greece. In the Russian Federation, for example, no Kobola and in  is present, even the last reactionaries in 00 moved from a Clarion on Java. P> On machines of series IBM/390 or Cray too all calculations on GPU? On these machines the museum cries. Now the videocard accessible to the schoolboy  these mainframes on productivity. P> remind, perhaps. You too did not find not walking electromail and not read codings? Not Opening files? Incompatible iron? Up to that there were huge lists that to what approaches, up to official recommendations of providers to use only certain modems because the remaining incompatible. P> in those days one bit of storage how many cost? How it looked, you though  to itself(himself)? What generally memory sizes stood on a computer of those times? Here is how to add useless flags so cost of bits hindered nobody. P> well that is at once it was necessary to begin with architecture of the end 90? I truly understood? And in 70, 80 it was not necessary to program at all? It was necessary to think a head then 80 nobody would consider programmers as dinosaurs. P> at the expense of what? When similar decisions appeared? And before as it was necessary? Because savages 80 were pushed aside by generation 90. Technically any problems was not, Feynman in 40 managed to organize pipeline calculations on the basis of mechanical calculators and blondes. P> so speech goes not about 2016, and about 70 - 80. How the Brooks should project /360? Experience you will not share? The system was projected in 1966. It is assured that any modern manager consulted better the Brooks. Yes for possibility to create so scale project from a blank leaf now many I smother are ready to sell to a devil.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, pagid, you wrote: P> Addressing was to words, byte addressing it just one of innovations in IBM-360. If it is absolutely exact, on any earlier IBM models tested, but that model has not been strongly spread. It I also name "byte of different length" P> Really consider, what the USSR did not have resources for creation of a computer more than with the 8-digit bus? Was not. The more widely the bus, the is more than logical elements and the the decision is more expensive. And 100 eight-bit machines would be more useful to the USSR than 10 . P> And that architecture whenever possible it is necessary to unify it just understood. And talk just about unification ways. Aha, only as a result gave birth to the mongrel of Uniformly Series. P> and what it is architecture copied to IBM-360? To words do not cling. To IBM there were tens own development which permanently threw out and altered from zero. P> do not become. It now from any ARM it is possible to try to blind something high-efficiency then all was not so. Also what hinders, except ? The machine on 16 Z80 I saw the eyes. P> is not present. To replace a cabinet with a chip certainly it is possible, and it can be convenient for continuation of maintenance of an old software. But never in such a way you use all possibilities of new element basis. BESM-6, IBM-360 and PDP-11 do not become the modern computers if them to make on one chip. That's it, because architecture of these machines initially defective. And here in a computer initially designed under the multiprocessor architecture it is possible to receive almost linear growth of productivity.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, pestis, you wrote: P> In the Russian Federation, for example, no Kobola and in  is present, even the last reactionaries in 00 moved from a Clarion on Java. Instead of  circuits made it . And middleware did of a client software. It is quite logical, all necessary data structures and requests there are already ready. For some scenarios of it did not suffice, it was necessary to get out different methods. The Clarion there not so approaches. Some other  altered, and they worked till some years, before their changeover Java and other modern technologies. In such changeover the sense was in disposal of crutches in an old software. In banks with which I had to work, there were mainframes. These most IBM/390. A software on them - continuous Kobol. Unique serious change, in it made is a passage from files to a DB. It was used DB/2. All application-oriented logic remains, what was. That is explainable: business processes did not change. P>> On machines of series IBM/390 or Cray too all calculations on GPU? P> On these machines the museum cries. Now the videocard accessible to the schoolboy  these mainframes on productivity. Also what, in Moscow, in hydrometeorological center the weather forecast is considered by one videocard accessible to the schoolboy? Ask itself a question: why mainframes continue to let out? Why them buy? P> you too did not find not walking electromail and not read codings? Not Opening files? Incompatible iron? Up to that there were huge lists that to what approaches, up to official recommendations of providers to use only certain modems because the remaining incompatible. Well was so any time. Bought from different vendors who that could. Also what? Unless did not come eventually to common denominator? Those times? P> here is how to add useless flags so cost of bits hindered nobody. About what useless flags there is a speech? Further any dial-up of imaginations went, to go deep in which at me is not present either time, or desire. Read the literature on stories of development in W, and, maybe, you for yourself will understand something. Good luck.

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Re: Re: when the false step has been made? (A sight from 1983)

Hello, Privalov, you wrote: P> instead of  circuits made It . And middleware did of a client software. It is quite logical, all necessary data structures and requests there are already ready. For some scenarios of it did not suffice, it was necessary to get out different methods. The Clarion there not so approaches. Some other  altered, and they worked till some years, before their changeover Java and other modern technologies. In such changeover the sense was in disposal of crutches in an old software. Once again, in what year and in what it is is specific banks there were mainframes with  and what is is specific they did? At least to within the country if a title you are not afraid to name. P> in banks with which I had to work, there were mainframes. These most IBM/390. A software on them - continuous Kobol. Unique serious change, in it made is a passage from files to a DB. It was used DB/2. All application-oriented logic remains, what was. That is explainable: Business processes did not change. I so understand, it is a question of the machine of conductings? P> also what, in Moscow, in hydrometeorological center the weather forecast is considered by one videocard accessible to the schoolboy? Ask itself a question: why mainframes continue to let out? Why them buy? ,  built a cluster in Irkutsk on a basis just such  servers because SGI they already gorged on. And buy mainframes because any grandfather with mania all sits in a management seat to push on one big machine and a horse-radish it will overpersuade. P> about what useless flags there is a speech? Open the standard yes look. P> any dial-up of imaginations further went, to go deep in which at me is not present either time, or desire. Read the literature on stories of development in W, and, maybe, you for yourself will understand something. Good luck. To read W history  broken from  a forehead so I grazed.