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Hello, licedey, you wrote: L> As it is possible to bridle complexity, I do not ask, but can tell. Key words - macroes. Much can be automated or made optimally without the strong expenses. For example, for Nitra the Author: VladD2 Date: 18.12.15 a client server IDE-cursor. In it code handling is conducted on the server, and dialogue is led through  messages. As a result wrote macro-attribute NitraMessage which being it is applied to type generates for it  the serialization code. As a result the description of types for messages began to look so: [NitraMessage] public struct FileEntries {public File: FileIdentity; public Ranges: ImmutableArray [Range];} The designer as is generated automatically. The complete list of all types finds room in one file and is perfectly easily supported. The code of a macro is here. It is natural that serialization it only an example. You can  anything you like and have one short source code generating a lot of code. Well, and language is more powerful. Even C# 7 does not include all its features. And 8 will not be. L> Resharper why that at me associates with an enormous general-purpose large object which only brakes studio. I understand certainly that the product good and ubiquitous, L> but me the same visual assist is closer. I used Visual Assist about 15 years ago. Then there functionality was very poor and it worked with a scratch.  now works enough not badly. Especially against new menedzhed-realization of Sharpa. And functionality there simply other-wordly. Navigation very convenient. You press Ctrl+T and you write capital letters (hs for search HashSet) the character necessary to you (without thinking about its type). Further from the list you select also already there. Further very convenient passage on implementations of interfaces and the virtual methods. Well, and it is a lot of all.

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Re: Jumps on the code

Hello, VladD2, you wrote: VD> The code of a macro is here. VD> it is natural that serialization it only an example. The primitive example - similar recursive serialization of structures and on a C ++ is implemented the Author: Evgeny. Panasyuk Date: 06.10.14 ten / two lines on immediately recursive "engine", plus by itself the code of serialization of basis types. VD> navigation very convenient. You press Ctrl+T and you write capital letters (hs for search HashSet) the character necessary to you (without thinking about its type). Further from the list you select also already there. Further very convenient passage on implementations of interfaces and the virtual methods. Well, and it is a lot of only. Such and for a C ++ is, at all within the limits of IDE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FQwQ0QWBTU

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Hello, VladD2, you wrote: VD> Hello, licedey, you wrote: L>> As it is possible to bridle complexity, I do not ask, but can tell. VD> the code of a macro is here. VD> it is natural that serialization it only an example. You can  anything you like and have one short source code generating a lot of code. From  I derived only that the designer of structure  itself. Well to investigate certainly time it is necessary and to see in operation. I esteem on days off getting started. I work here with person VD> Well, and language is more powerful. Even C# 7 does not include all its features. And 8 will not be. I will not argue, mass character does not suffice, community. That came on SO, and there already 25 answers to your question. By the way, came some years ago to Microsoft ua, and started to show them the project which as I spoke in a basis contained your parcer. And they shrugged shoulders at a word of Nemerle. Strange, isn't that so? VD> Resharper now works enough not badly. Especially against new menedzhed-realization of Sharpa. And functionality there simply other-wordly. VD> navigation very convenient. You press Ctrl+T and you write capital letters (hs for search HashSet) the character necessary to you (without thinking about its type). Further from the list you select also already there. Further very convenient passage on implementations of interfaces and the virtual methods. Well, and it is a lot of only. While I work at home, I certainly presume to use it. But at me doubts creep in that any office presumes to itself their price. A minimum 300 c.u. a year. . Soon MS in the spirit filches all their features and it ceases to be necessary. However and visual assist it is not so necessary, in the last studio did not put it, for all from a box.

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Hello, licedey, you wrote: L> in general not to speak in a circumlocutory manner, I will pass to a question. You have a monster, you have a task. In between - an implementation precipice. How to retain in a head and to implement all microtasks? L> normal process  goes approximately so (on myself I judge). You should create a class (in the necessary folder) to create in it properties, then to connect it with UI, then to correct class Settings that it considered the made changes, in other class to create object, to pass in the necessary method . Generally, we permanently spring on the code. To the huge uncontrollable. And how easier to make, that these jumps were more productive and did not strain all brain. L> here my example that I for this purpose do. I have a multitask, or a most important task which was designated by the customer (want the manager). Certainly I break it into smaller subtasks. And further, proceeding from them I begin . But here and to have to falter all time.  in UI,  in configs,  in a model class,  in a view-model class, L> back in UI. And this process is cyclic. Between these jumps, it is possible to lose any detail and generally to depart to space, reflecting on life. L> I write to Vobshchem all to a notepad, all these microtasks, and at each jump I climb in notices not to forget. At you as? Do the task transactionally - do not begin following yet do not finish the leaking. The main ideas, classes, abstractions do not shun to write down on a paper. It really better than to write down in any notepad on the computer, more conciseness it will be involved. At me the situation is similar, though I and not the freelancer. I actively use R#, adjusted it under myself - the hot-key'i etc. In a case with the customer and constant requirements get any agile a type board kanban, jira etc. So it is easier it and you to trace the task and the status. That does not cancel the pen and a paper.

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Hello, Evgeny. Panasyuk, you wrote: EP> the Primitive example - similar recursive serialization of structures and on a C ++ is implemented the Author: Evgeny. Panasyuk Date: 06.10.14 - ten / two lines on immediately recursive "engine", plus by itself the code of serialization of basis types. Language all becomes, and in practice one problems. Well, and it only one of simple examples who can be understood easily. A macro a piece general-purpose. Both much more powerful and convenient these your grimaces on templates. Then presently very few people will write application-oriented things on pluses. At Java, etc. no trick on templates is present Sharpe, as there are no templates. VD>> navigation very convenient. You press Ctrl+T and you write capital letters (hs for search HashSet) the character necessary to you (without thinking about its type). Further from the list you select also already there. Further very convenient passage on implementations of interfaces and the virtual methods. Well, and it is a lot of all. EP> Such and for a C ++ is, at all within the limits of IDE: EP> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FQwQ0QWBTU It from the same series how to compare  to sample MT. Like as similar things, and possibilities . That that in it video is shown for Sharpa is from  in studio. It is a primitive dial-up. It is not considered at all. It only for  a wonder is. Features of Resharpera on navigation much more abruptly. And refactoring and it is not necessary to speak. If your Emaksov to people  as CLion nobody would start such things.  excuse, but  with  it is completely not interesting to me. Live in the ancient world easy. Nobody wanted to disturb you. Consider that at you all more abruptly than at all. Successes to you! Money is not present!

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Hello, VladD2, you wrote: EP>> the Primitive example - similar recursive serialization of structures and on a C ++ is implemented the Author: Evgeny. Panasyuk Date: 06.10.14 - ten / two lines on immediately recursive "engine", plus by itself the code of serialization of basis types. VD> language all becomes, and in practice one problems. The resulted piece of the code from the real project of a spider which  P2P a network in hundred thousand nodes, the dialogue protocol between nodes just on the basis of structures-messages, which  this code - an example similar to yours. But you are finite can and stir further about "one problems". VD> Well, and it only one of simple examples who can be understood easily. A macro a piece general-purpose. Both much more powerful and convenient these your grimaces on templates. A piece abrupt, undoubtedly. My point in that that your example at all does not uncover force of macroes in Nemerle for similar automatic serialization much where is implemented and consequently any vau-effect does not produce. An example with the user conditional statement a-lja if, or for example implementation of the interpolated lines, would be much more indicative and are effective. VD> then presently very few people will write application-oriented things on pluses. At Java, etc. no trick on templates is present Sharpe, as there are no templates. And it turns out so application-oriented things on a C ++ and are written, and any glues-linings between a DB and UI on C#/Java - actually  and other LightSwitch here has been knowingly mentioned, for similar spacers often typical. VD> it from the same series how to compare  to sample MT. Like as similar things, and possibilities . VD> that that in it video is shown for Sharpa is from  in studio. It is a primitive dial-up. It is not considered at all. It only for  a wonder is. VD> Fichi Resharpera on navigation much more abruptly. And refactoring and it is not necessary to speak. VD> If your Emaksov to people  as CLion nobody would start such things. VD>  VD> excuse, but  with  it is completely not interesting to me. Live in the ancient world easy. Nobody wanted to disturb you. Consider that at you all more abruptly than at all. Successes to you! Money is not present! So you did not understand about what speech, and as usual showed adequacy miracles. Speech that features about which you told about that there is EVEN in -IDE for  you a C ++. Most likely Resharpera really have any abrupt features for navigation, but you for some reason instead of them mentioned any primitive.

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Hello, VladD2, you wrote: VD> Then in the MSEC carefully wiped up links to Nemerle even in arguings on . In the beginning there were links, and then they were dirtied carefully. At them there the big fear that someone on them submits to court under patents and copyrights. And can it is simple do not want to advertize. But the fact is the fact. There are examples where wiped up? Or in some places forgot? https://github.com/dotnet/roslyn/issues … ;q=nemerle

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Hello, _NN _, you wrote: VD>> Then in the MSEC carefully wiped up links to Nemerle even in arguings on . _NN> There are examples where wiped up? Or in some places forgot? Well here what for you so? Them now shoot, at least. In the heart made the way. If it is serious - did not wipe up, I for issues  periodically glance. In mine  all as well as was. By the way, and in issues  unless there is a possibility to delete strangers ?

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Hello, Evgeny. Panasyuk, you wrote: EP> the Resulted piece of the code from the real project of a spider which  P2P a network in hundred thousand nodes, the dialogue protocol between nodes just on the basis of structures-messages, which  this code - an example similar to yours. But you are finite can and stir further about "one problems". This banal eyewash. You resulted all code. The master code at you in libraries. And there it over-dofiga. You held back a heap of different details. I resulted the full implementation without libraries and crutches like determination of classes by means of lines knows what macroes. When it is required to make, something not put by authors of it FUSION, it is necessary to write on this wonderful means language of templates most. And to write on it to put it mildly it is not simple. Here there were at me any problems in implementation, I put an end of a stop and a debugger understood, what not so. And what to do with templates? In the same place even the debug press you will not deliver. Well, and speed of operation besides is not comparable. Templates are an interpretation. Moreover and not high-grade , and emulated on ghost effects of templates.  is  the code in the same language that is used for writing of the civil code. At me in the project 3 types of serialization. One very compact and fast for serialization of events. It uses a row  like that serialization and deserialising should be produced by one version of library. Another supports  for loading of the changed data structures from the previous formats and supports loading from exterior libraries the automatic machine resolving the link and a system the object graph. My sterilization knows that such inheritance and polymorphism. It  some types from standard library  and  (which are compiled to my macroes and in other language). And these can make laugh me 10 lines only as in them and tenth share of all these nuances not to describe. I see only any template  a call of functions. EP> a piece abrupt, undoubtedly. My point in that that your example at all does not uncover force of macroes in Nemerle for similar automatic serialization much where is implemented and consequently any vau-effect does not produce. I wrote that it was written not counting on the guru of metaprogramming on templates With ++. It is a simple example clear . I am finite I can  about implementation of language of dependent properties, for example, but I am afraid it is necessary to read at first a course of lectures on dependent properties. And here all is clear and customary. EP> an example with the user conditional statement a-lja if, or for example implementation of the interpolated lines, would be much more indicative and are effective. They was are not clear to that to whom I wrote. Besides it is the language extensions, which many perceive in bayonets (simply because did not try also it terribly). Examples, generally, it is possible to result much. But the task to give an example that as  can help with the narrow task, instead of refining language. About language I too told. But also in 10 years after appearance advances Sharp. And its many features are implemented, really, on macroes. But hardly I  will surprise   (in the original ) lines or the operator of safe access to members "?." As they already  in C#, and that that in Nemerle in Sharp do not howl it will be simple not clearly . And here examples of automation and code generation they are clear all and to everyone. Also that that which that can be made on sample MT in pluses helps these  a little. EP> And it turns out so application-oriented things on a C ++ and are written, and any glues-linings between a DB and UI on C#/Java - actually  and other LightSwitch here has been knowingly mentioned, for similar spacers often typical. I do not want to argue on this subject. You do, and . In my opinion (and a majority sight ) it . EP> So you did not understand about what speech, and as usual showed adequacy miracles. Speech that features about which you told about that there is EVEN in -IDE for  you a C ++. Most likely Resharpera really have any abrupt features for navigation, but you for some reason instead of them mentioned any primitive. Yes in your video of anything similar to volume about what I told something was not present. Where there navigation on redefinitions of the virtual methods? Where search of characters in all solution in real time? Between  and the code (about which the author of a subject spoke) and it is not necessary to speak about passage, as this most . On   is any XAML. In it the sea of feeblly typified or absolutely not not typified (dynamic) code on the bird's language.  does different gamble and tries  it  in IDE. As a result people receive much more convenient navigation on the code and other features.

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Hello, VladD2, you wrote: VD> Hello, licedey, you wrote: L>> From  I derived only that the designer of structure  itself. VD> for this purpose generally one line of the code was required, as the macro of generation of designers already is from a box. I will not be that or to state about Nemerle because I have about it no due representation. But you permanently repeat about macroes, I did not investigate into a subject, but I guess that it from meta-programming area. If I tell that it is type #define in With, or templates in With ++, or mentioned T4. Well, we tell so, in practice it is necessary it will be accustomed to such approach at first to reveal the generalized variant, and then to fix for it  the decision. Whether often such it is necessary in real life - . To me for example is not present. Though at me it is normal under the new project in a month, and it is often used same. While  - my friend. By the way, with WPF Nemerle is on friendly terms? And with ASP.NET MVC? Here there sample decisions though take away. I about UI and any authorizations, configurations . These damned forms each time from zero to impose - it "is a pleasure". If it was possible somehow  this process... I at most have some ideas of the bicycle, can shares But being returned to a question on community, my judgement such. If you consider as the main counter of language the same macroes for example find target audience and show it that your decision powerful and saves time. I do not understand, why the same Python, PHP flied up, and you hammered on community development. , other example. It is literally for 2 years Xamarin turned from anything in standard  for church of witnesses of Gates. The uncle which was engaged in development of this thingummy, even collected not sickly bribe for usage. Why? Well you know why because it was necessary for people. Than to learn notorious Objective-C and all subtleties iOS, receive please all in favourite . SO=StackOverflow if that

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Hello, licedey, you wrote: L> Hello, VladD2, you wrote: VD>> Hello, licedey, you wrote: L>>> From  I derived only that the designer of structure  itself. VD>> for this purpose generally one line of the code was required, as the macro of generation of designers already is from a box. I see you resulted examples, well it is bulky somehow for getting started, the person which first time sees language and no concepts has that from what turns out.

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Hello, _NN _, you wrote: _NN> There are examples where wiped up? Or in some places forgot? I specially links not . Simply I remember that in the first lists of features and descriptions  links to Nemerl, and then imperceptibly disappeared and have been replaced on  or with something. _NN> https://github.com/dotnet/roslyn/issues … ;q=nemerle looked at the first  links is all messages from exterior users and then mentions were in  descriptions. Precisely I remember that at the first description  lines there were links to Nemerl, and further it disappeared and there were links on  languages.

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Hello, licedey, you wrote: L>>> From  I derived only that the designer of structure  itself. VD>> for this purpose generally one line of the code was required, as the macro of generation of designers already is from a box. L> I will not be that or to state about Nemerle because I have about it no due representation. But you permanently repeat about macroes, I did not investigate into a subject, but I guess that it from meta-programming area. If I tell that it is type #define in With, or templates in With ++, or mentioned T4. It is closer to macroes Lisp'. If to take analogy with T4 - that macroes Nermele it is such T4 which on the order it is more tightly integrated into language, has more access to the information on language constructions, more , it is hygienic, gives earlier error trapping, etc. Plus a feature on the syntax extension - it is possible to enter new constructions, operators, etc. immediately into language. In particular customary constructions of type of conditional statements are implemented in a library type. Plus integration in IDE - illumination of this syntax expanded with macroes. P.S. If it would be desirable plunges, I recommend to begin with presentation VladD2 - https://rsdn.org/forum/dotnet/4280350.1 the Author: VladD2 Date: 22.05.11

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Hello, licedey, you wrote: L> These damned forms each time from zero to impose - it "is a pleasure". If it was possible somehow  this process... I at most have some ideas of the bicycle, can shares For  "processes" quite often enough simple  on any Python, or close C#- T4. L> If you consider as the main counter of language the same macroes for example find target audience and show it that your decision powerful and saves time. I think initially target audience/platform that is selected not, . At first metaprogramming gives high-speed performance in comparison with more dynamical decisions. For example the same serialization on macroes against serialization on runtime-reflection - possibilities about identical, but differs speed. For audience which as a prayer says  it in general not interesting. And to whom nevertheless sometimes it are required that - are able to uncover T4 if needed, and in a whisker do not blow. Secondly gives big  in comparison with the same dynamic analogs. But for the sake of this advantage, and that which is only in some places,  from cozy, familiar and popular C#/Java/whatever very few people will be. Many generally use entirely dynamic languages - and C# with dynamism in some places generally without problems worry. Thirdly it is language extensions, but on assurances most VladD2 "many perceive in bayonets (simply because did not try also it terribly)" - and programmers corporate  will perceive especially in bayonets. Artful.NET - on the one hand gave Nemerle a huge ecosystem, provided some start and some applicability, and with another doomed to the permanent marginal status. And here if there was a sight on C audience ++, on an appropriate platform it there would be an excellent candidate on a post of the murderer of a C ++. For there there is a huge demand for everyones zero-cost abstractions, metaprogramming in honor (even any sample "magic" a-lja enable_if  creeping in the standard), the built in domenno-specific languages and it despite all language difficulties and overheating of compilers are spread.

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Hello, the Philosopher, you wrote:>> Further a system so that each subsystem could be represented seven figures on a plane etc. S>> Here I did not begin to recommend anything similar, . in most cases similar artful circuits are degenerated in blind a cargo-cult in style of three sigmas or still what . Unfortunately your general recommendation "is an elephant on slices" often leads to that each slice of an elephant is connected to billion other slices of an elephant, and even simply to reach a slice 1ACE8 makes a problem, not to mention that it to correct so that all elephant thus was not scattered. My main thought consisted that it is necessary to operate reasonable kol-vom slices for time. And it can achieve only hierarchical designing of this elephant. For this purpose, before , it is necessary to break an elephant into separate parts and to define correlations in between, thus to aspire to that the interface of interaction of parts would contain as less as possible functions. For example - some parts of an elephant: the Carrying construction fulfilling so transport functions (a skeleton and muscles) the Management system consisting from , buses of the data and sensors (the nervous system consisting of a brain, nerves and sense organs) with pumping station (blood system and heart) the Power supply system (digestive system) System of an output of a waste Large parts are informed Produktoprovod among themselves by means of the bus of the data and . On a low level each large part consists of objects of the different types inherited from a class the Cell. I.e. - it is had composite objects, at each of which the function and informed with others on the clear interface. Each composite object consists of objects more low level. As a result we have system with clear object hierarchy and a construction. But thus - as a whole it is the most complicated system.

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Hello, AleksandrN, you wrote: AN> Large parts are informed among themselves by means of the bus of the data and . On a low level each large part consists of objects of the different types inherited from a class the Cell. Absolutely successful idea Here is better to be fond of analogies and to assort specific examples on specific scenarios. Otherwise the hogwash turns out.

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Hello, Sinix, you wrote: S> Hello, AleksandrN, you wrote: AN>> Large parts are informed among themselves by means of the bus of the data and . On a low level each large part consists of objects of the different types inherited from a class the Cell. S> absolutely successful idea S> Here is better to be fond of analogies and to assort specific examples on specific scenarios. Otherwise the hogwash turns out. It agree that the analogy not so successful turned out. And for an example well to look at architecture of any project of a topic-starter and to consider successful and unsuccessful ideas in architecture.

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Hello, Evgeny. Panasyuk, you wrote: EP> Hello, licedey, you wrote: L>> These damned forms each time from zero to impose - it "is a pleasure". If it was possible somehow  this process... I at most have some ideas of the bicycle, can shares EP> For  "processes" quite often enough simple  on any Python, or close C#- T4. Python, T4 - apprx. But it is bulky and it is difficult, especially for UI. I consider there should be a decision "for the housewife", reducing risk of an error and general-purpose as Kalashnikov. And in case of mentioned , each time - as a matter of fact, write a new bicycle. L>> if you consider as the main counter of language the same macroes for example find target audience and show it that your decision powerful and saves time. EP> I think initially target audience/platform that is selected not, . EP> At first metaprogramming gives high-speed performance in comparison with more dynamical decisions. For example the same serialization on macroes against serialization on runtime - the Main audience, I so understand, sits here. They are enthusiasts which presume to itself  in something new. At remaining as you correctly noted, deadlines and stupidly are not present time for learning. I one sight look at syntax and me , at least because that it not S-like. To admit to me and from Objective-C and Ruby, about same sensation-bewilderment. And there are still such wild languages as Perl, Haskell and F#. Here me it is exact the Higher Force punishes, if sends on the project where they are used. The answer is simple - I want to eat and the hammer is necessary to me. I see only one reason of development of any language is a new platform. With ++ it became necessary for UI, Java for cross connects-platforms and a web, PHP for a web, Objective-C for iPhone. C# it is stupid, because existing tools under Win became outdated. Let it is rough - but I see the reason only in it. Why not to adapt Nemerle we tell for IoT. Or we take more narrowly -  sites. Or testing. Yes even if it under  will be ground is better Xamarin, I there and then will rush to learn. Here personally from Nemerle it was necessary for me Peg, 4 years ago when was not still Roslyn, and the choice fell more because I sat at this forum and heard about Nemerle. + there where = language.