76

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, landerhigh, you wrote: L> Not to mention that any especial research and development there is not so necessary. All components are,  and are accessible. Do a platform and implement. It is possible even a set for  a rolling stock to make. So and that then you yet will not organize manufacture, and at a forum sit?

77

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, Erop, you wrote: L>> Not to mention that any especial research and development there is not so necessary. All components are,  and are accessible. Do a platform and implement. It is possible even a set for  a rolling stock to make. E> so and that then you yet will not organize manufacture, and at a forum you sit? Because with search of the investors, ready to lay out the round total here directly  and at once at me it was not took yet. And outputs on any kingpins to lobby , I have no.

78

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, Patsak, you wrote: Could. But then it had to support and develop at own expense all trolleybus infrastructure. It is difficult - it was much easier to buy somewhere in Europe killed   "Mercedes" and to hammer all of them in routes from center to dormitory areas to which there is a main trolleybus network. So means buses  ?.

79

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

80

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, landerhigh, you wrote: L> Because with search of the investors, ready to lay out the round total here directly  and at once at me it was not took yet. And outputs on any kingpins to lobby , I have no. And the business plan at least at you already is?

81

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, Erop, you wrote: I>> I do not know for Moscow, but in Saratov from buses to saw the budget easier. E> is easier, than from what? E> If than from trolls, why? Because buses quotients, and trolley buses . Therefore by buses to saw compensatings from the budget which uncontrolledly leave to owners easier. And the income of passengers receives not who is not known, and the same owners - "dear" oligarchs from an United Russia.

82

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, Irrbis, you wrote: I> Because buses quotients, and trolley buses . And why it so was added? I> therefore by buses to saw compensatings from the budget which uncontrolledly leave to owners easier. And the income of passengers receives not who is not known, and the same owners - "dear" oligarchs from an United Russia. Well, so, capitalism ? The income to owners. You do not like what a carrier private? Well for the communist it is expected, but at what here a difference between trolley buses and buses?

83

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, Erop, you wrote: L>> Because with search of the investors, ready to lay out the round total here directly  and at once at me it was not took yet. And outputs on any kingpins to lobby , I have no. E> and the business plan at least at you already is? What  the business plan? The word "business" should not be applied to the vital infrastructure. Basically. To argue on this subject do not intend at all. And that you mean, is called "the plan for development of the city of HHHH". Which responsible people should develop. Here in a section of this it is possible to construct the long-term plan and to estimate advantage of a city from passage to completely trolleybus driving.

84

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, landerhigh, you wrote: L> What  the business plan? That is the investor is not necessary to you? I wanted to offer easier variant. L> the word "business" should not be applied to the vital infrastructure. Basically. To argue on this subject do not intend at all. Happens. I truly understand, what you withdraw the words about research and development will be cheap? L> here in a section of this it is possible to construct the long-term plan and to estimate advantage of a city from passage to completely trolleybus driving. It is obvious that from passage to trolley buses there will be one losses. Trolley buses - transport for the rich and equipped cities. And completely not especially transport for suburbs.

85

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, Erop, you wrote: E> At what here "at first"? The colleague states that investments are not necessary, researches and development are not necessary, it is necessary to take simply ready components and to do. E> well and with a fig it or not it, but someone else, does not do? All can not so simply?... Do not do because a lot of mind to interpose batteries into a trolley bus today it is not necessary. But it is absolutely senseless without the complex approach to transport system of a city. That is without interest and involving of city authorities quits nothing.

86

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, TMU_1, you wrote: TMU> Thin public transport? The USSR here precisely is in vain mentioned. In Minsk there did not go thin trolley buses? At me in a city went.... <<RSDN@Home 1.0.0 alpha 5 rev. 0>>

87

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, Erop, you wrote: E> Hello, landerhigh, you wrote: L>> What  the business plan? E> that is the investor is not necessary to you? I wanted to offer easier variant. It is necessary, but on my own project. And not one. L>> the word "business" should not be applied to the vital infrastructure. Basically. To argue on this subject do not intend at all. E> Happens. I truly understand, what you withdraw the words about research and development will be cheap? No, incorrectly. Cost  there in a microscope it will be not visible against initial investments into an infrastructure. Which  for state projects rather quickly. L>> here in a section of this it is possible to construct the long-term plan and to estimate advantage of a city from passage to completely trolleybus driving. E> it is obvious that from passage to trolley buses there will be one losses." Obviously "it is necessary to substantiate with any calculations. It is meanwhile obvious that cost of maintenance of the bus on the move and in  with ecological norms exceeds this for a trolley bus in times.

88

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, landerhigh, you wrote: L> do not do because a lot of mind to interpose batteries into a trolley bus today it is not necessary. Certification is Still necessary, well and you about the robotized slip rings wrote something, like... And with batteries if them to do safe and at competitive prices, too not all so is simple

89

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, Patsak, you wrote: On grain routes? It is natural, since enclosing very few money [and having a hairy paw in the power], it is possible to snip off at once to itself the big chunk of a pie. But here nuance: more cheaply and more favourably it only for a private trader, which this big chunk receives. Profitability of remaining carriers which lost this pie, very quickly punches a floor. And how it is connected to a difference between trolley buses and buses?

90

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, AleksandrN, you wrote: AN> make determination of driving of a train "in an in a civilized way way" and not "in an in a civilized way way". That the person on Vitebsk in St.-Petersburg of villages in an electric train also would reach station to Great Novgorod. And now can reach only to Novolisina. That the person on Vitebsk station in St.-Petersburg sat down on an electric train and reached to station the Bottom (the railway junction in the Pskov area), there changed on an electric train and reached to Novosokolnikov. And there it is possible to Velikie Luki and by the bus to reach. And now can only to Oredezha. That inhabitants of Kupchina (southern region of St.-Petersburg through which transits the Vitebsk direction) did not suffer from exhausts of diesel locomotives. That on Warsaw (or what there) station in St.-Petersburg the person sat down in an electric train and reached to Pskov. And now only to station Luga, and further by the bus (or a suburban train Luga - Pskov,  walks two times a day). Well though Gatchina - Vejmarn - Boilers - Ust-meadows electrified a section. It is necessary to electrify still a section -------- that the person on Baltiysk station of villages on an electric train, reached to Ivangorod, outpassed between Russia and Estonia, villages in Narva on other electric train and reached to Tallinn. That the person at the Riga station in Moscow at station Rizhskmom of villages on an electric train also reached to Rzhev without changes (as conveniently, isn't that so?). And now it is necessary to do change in Shahovsky on the bus or on a suburban train which ONE (!) walks Time a day. Or to go to Rzhev by the bus from underground "Tushinsky". That from Paveletsky station did not spend 15 - 18 - 20 or how many there minutes on  the locomotive in the Necklace (if to go in the Donbass direction) - and the electric locomotive would take a train from Moscow to Eltsa. That such regional center as Ulyanovsk (whence I come and where there live my relatives) would have normal railway communication with Inzoj (a railway junction in the west of the Ulyanovsk region) at which locomotives should be changed not in Inze, and in Potme/Zubovoj to the Glade/sasove/shilove. That to inhabitants and the enterprises of Ulyanovsk there would be no problems with railway communication. (From Ulyanovsk four branch lines (on Inzu, to Bugulma, to Kazan and to Syzran and all of them - single-track not electrified) depart.) That the train No 100 Moscow - Vladivostok would not change locomotives in Galich (a section Kostroma - Galich not electrified). That inhabitants of Arkhangelsk would not suffer with diesel locomotives, to whose fire chamber submit even not diesel fuel, and a plastic waste. (Saw such reporting on the Internet). That trains Moscow - Saratov did not waste time for change of locomotives in Rtishcheve.

91

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, landerhigh, you wrote: L> It is necessary, but on my own project. And not one. And about trolley buses on batteries is whose there was a project? L> is not present, incorrectly. Cost  there in a microscope it will be not visible against initial investments into an infrastructure. Absolutely ceased to understand, about what speech. Expenses for an infrastructure same not expenses of the supplier of trolley buses? Well and the robotized rods are necessary, how I understood, just for this purpose, what cheaply  an existing infrastructure? L> which  for state projects rather quickly. Even with calculations it would sound very similar on drank, and without calculations... L> "Obviously" it is necessary to substantiate with any calculations. You there above wrote that the infrastructure very expensive is necessary under the troll... And generally at us here quarter of the century of wild capitalism happened, and everywhere trolls died out or nearly so died out. How you think, why? L> it is Meanwhile obvious that cost of maintenance of the bus on the move and in  with ecological norms exceeds this for a trolley bus in times. But the contact network is not necessary to the bus and it is much more floppy... And still heating in the bus is cheaper.

92

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, Erop, you wrote: E> the Russian Railway last 10 puts years in development and infrastructure upgrade much. E> I think that if electrification somewhere was favourable, it would lead. Electrified road to Murmansk, for example? Yes, I know it - went in 2012 to the Solovki from Moscow to Kemi (and it is reverse). It so. Also electrified a railroad line Gatchina - Vejmarn - Boilers - Ust-meadows. But on it while all. In Belarus electrified a section of Osipovichi - Zhlobin - Gomel. Now electrify a section of Molodechno - Nauja-Vilnja (Vilnius). And in Ukraine generally for 25 years many railways have been electrified.

93

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, RussianFellow, you wrote: RF> Yes, I know it - went in 2012 to the Solovki from Moscow to Kemi (and it is reverse). It so. RF> Also electrified a railroad line Gatchina - Vejmarn - Boilers - Ust-meadows. RF> but on it while all. So and whether it is necessary more? For example, the Russian Railway can reduce not all-electronic sections so, what on remained to use remaining suitable locomotives. RF> and in Ukraine generally for 25 years many railways have been electrified. So in the same place Europe. They do not reflex, and destroy

94

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, Patsak, you wrote: See two answers above and cease to play the favourite game. Above you wrote what to support a contact network very expensively... I truly understood you?

95

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, Patsak, you wrote: No. Was expensive to buy and support all contact network on all routes (and also all remaining infrastructure of trolleybus transportations of type of depot, table, etc.). Cheaply - to bite off from trolleybus routes their most favourable part and will let out on these routes   with the drivers typed under the declaration from street which to collect from this part all cream, working by any own rules (for example visiting in garage at once after rush hour termination). And what hindered to bite off with routes and a network piece?

96

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, Erop, you wrote: L>> It is necessary, but on my own project. And not one. E> and about trolley buses on batteries is whose there was a project? This "project" already in the implemented type is a lot of where in the world is available. Enough, as they say, "to adopt experience". L>> Is not present, incorrectly. Cost  there in a microscope it will be not visible against initial investments into an infrastructure. E> absolutely ceased to understand, about what speech. Expenses for an infrastructure same not expenses of the supplier of trolley buses? And without expenses for this infrastructure any "the supplier of trolley buses" basically cannot arise. E> well and the robotized rods are necessary, how I understood, just for this purpose, what cheaply  an existing infrastructure? And also to simplify a contact network. To make possible intersection of a trolleybus line with the electrified railway. To remove a web of wires from the large areas generally. To eliminate as a class a problem "cork from trolley buses because of a wire breakage or failure". L>> "Obviously" it is necessary to substantiate with any calculations. E> you there above wrote that the infrastructure very expensive is necessary under the troll... Dear. But not madly expensive. And you wrote that in your city it already is. Means, it is possible to cover on an available infrastructure with trolley buses the much bigger area. E> and generally at us here quarter of the century of wild capitalism happened, and everywhere trolls died out or nearly so died out. How you think, why? In Peter - did not die out. And there, where died out, it because that someone does not understand that words "business" and "the vital infrastructure" are incompatible. L>> it is meanwhile obvious that cost of maintenance of the bus on the move and in  with ecological norms exceeds this for a trolley bus in times. E> but to the bus the contact network is not necessary and it is much more floppy. . But it needs frequent regulated THAT with changeover of a heap rather expensive and harmful . And a lot of smelly fuel. E> and still heating in the bus is cheaper. It, probably, unique advantage of the bus before the trolley bus which has been not anchored rigidly to a contact network.

97

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, landerhigh, you wrote: L> This "project" already in the implemented type is a lot of where in the world is available. Enough, as they say, "to adopt experience". That is what to start to produce such technics - a hogwash a question, you  refuse? L> and without expenses for this infrastructure any "the supplier of trolley buses" basically cannot arise. So it is whose expenses should be L> In Peter - did not die out. L> and there where died out, it because that someone does not understand that words "business" and "the vital infrastructure" are incompatible. But the word "business" and a word is favourable"somewhere nearby walk. And unless all carriers it is a lot of where on the world to which experience you appealed, quotients? Besides, in Peter a climate a little not the Moscow... L> But to it frequent regulated THAT is necessary with changeover of a heap rather expensive and harmful . And a lot of smelly fuel. And it is necessary for power station of that? Well and with  not too all is simple. As then and  on power station it is necessary to consider. L> it, probably, unique advantage of the bus before the trolley bus which has been not anchored rigidly to a contact network.  from batteries too it is unprofitable to feed...

98

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, Erop, you wrote: E> Hello, RussianFellow, you wrote: RF>> Yes, I know it - went in 2012 to the Solovki from Moscow to Kemi (and it is reverse). It so. RF>> Also electrified a railroad line Gatchina - Vejmarn - Boilers - Ust-meadows. RF>> but on it while all. E> so and whether it is necessary more? 1. A Vitebsk course (------------). Refines communication of St.-Petersburg with Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, and also wasps the countries East and the Western Europe. 2. A section of Novolisino - Novgorod. Allows to start up electric trains from VITEBSK station of St.-Petersburg to Great Novgorod. 3. Luga - the Bottom. Allows to start up electric trains from St.-Petersburg to Pskov. 4. Obozersky - Arkhangelsk. Will be logical end of electrification of a railroad line on the north from Yaroslavl.  it is electrified only to Obozersky. (Plus the line Obozersky - Belomorsk, but it aside, on the West) is electrified. 5. Shahovsky - Rzhev. Allows to reach from Moscow Rzhev by electric trains. 6. A necklace - Yelets. It will not be necessary to change the locomotive in the Necklace. 7. Michurinsk - Rtishchevo. It will not be necessary to change the locomotive in Rtishcheve. 8.  - Kotlas - Mikun - Vorkuta. Refines supply of Republic Komi with remaining Russia. While at least it is so much. RF>> And in Ukraine generally for 25 years many railways have been electrified. E> so in the same place Europe. They do not reflex, and destroy It has been made to the Maidan of 2013.

99

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, Patsak, you wrote: At first, I strongly am not assured what to buy the municipal property on-cheap stuff for a private trader as simply, as  German buses. And secondly, well you bought it is and further that? To service trolley buses, it is necessary for depot. And to buy it together with wires and machines is already absolutely another . Whether And THAT is necessary for buses that?:??? *

100

Re: In Moscow trolley buses all?

Hello, RussianFellow, you wrote: RF> 1. A Vitebsk course (------------). Refines communication of St.-Petersburg with Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, and also wasps the countries East and the Western Europe. And what for it is necessary? There big  or  a flow? If speech about trade Pitru is more logical to trade with Finland, like as, instead of with the Eastern Europe, and, especially, Ukraine... RF> 2. A section of Novolisino - Novgorod. Allows to start up electric trains from VITEBSK station of St.-Petersburg to Great Novgorod. Too somehow the scoring and expenses disproportionately looks... RF> 3. Luga - the Bottom. Allows to start up electric trains from St.-Petersburg to Pskov. And it what for generally is necessary? RF> 4. Obozersky - Arkhangelsk. Will be logical end of electrification of a railroad line on the north from Yaroslavl. "Logical" is about what." Favourably because "is here the business approach Besides, I see that while there was money, the Russian Railway  developed an infrastructure. Including electrified any sections... So all is explicit here not so simply. RF> 5. Shahovsky - Rzhev. Allows to reach from Moscow Rzhev by electric trains. What for? RF> 8.  - Kotlas - Mikun - Vorkuta. Refines supply of Republic Komi with remaining Russia. Too it is not clear what for and whether refines. In a severe climate, by the way, the contact network badly conducts itself. Is frosted over, it is torn and so on... RF> It has been made to the Maidan of 2013." Tse Europe "there year with 1989, if not earlier...   Skoka I on Ukrainian  did not go, except for their new trains from Siemens, whether that, is simply rare sediment was always. So here they precisely bad example for imitation in this question. And at them there all the same is very warmer... Such meteoconditions as on the way to Vorkuta, there does not happen