51

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, pagid, you wrote: R>> And that the first point passed? I will add: P> In the first point all is clear also anything new - if the order within the limits of official duties and the executor did not know all responsibility about its illegality carries given order. We consider the second point. And generally, it  any. These two points - an evident illustration to a proverb "the law as ...". You will not execute the order - attract for insubordination, you will fulfill - attract for submission to "certainly criminal order"

52

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, Hobbes, you wrote: H> Hello, Skorodum, you wrote: S>> Is not present. Responsibility carries only the person who has given the order. H> it that, from concentration camps in vain shot executioners? I about your moral standards do not know I know for the Russian charter.

53

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, rg45, you wrote: R> And generally, it  any. These two points - an evident illustration to a proverb "the law as ...". You will not execute the order - attract for insubordination, you will fulfill - such hard lot and a choice at people who can kill others attract for "undoubted submission to the criminal order" Here. You think all so it should be simple - commanded "kill him" and at once it is necessary and it is possible to execute the order without reflecting?

54

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, pagid, you wrote: P> Hello, Skorodum, you wrote: S>> Is not present. Responsibility carries only the person who has given the order. P> about the American laws I do not know, and on ours responsibility is carried also by the executor, at them likely as. Certainly the order should be obviously illegal, and if the executor was mistaken in an estimation of it already it to bear responsibility for order violation. Under the Soviet laws, yes, responsibility was carried only by the given order. The link to article of charter  the Russian Federation.

55

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, Skorodum, you wrote: S> the Link to article of charter  the Russian Federation. Responsibility carry not under charters, and on . Article 42, item 2

56

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, pagid, you wrote: P> Here such hard lot and a choice at people who can kill others. You think all so it should be simple - commanded "kill him" and at once it is necessary and it is possible to execute the order without reflecting? Undoubtedly, ultimate authority at decision-making at the person is its conscience. And life sometimes forces to make a hard choice. But in this case, such here inconsistency in laws bounds with nonsense.

57

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, rg45, you wrote: R> it is indisputable, ultimate authority at decision-making at the person is its conscience. And life sometimes forces to make a hard choice. But in this case, such here inconsistency in laws bounds with nonsense. Why nonsense? In the law there is a word "certainly", it is important not only in this article, but for all . And if all was simple, unambiguous and is formalized, also courts were not necessary. In application to this article the word can "certainly mean, for example, the order to shoot prisoners of war, deliberately to kill civil, or something to steal from a warehouse adjacent (or the) /, yes it is a lot of still everything, and to understand it quite well for the executor of the order.

58

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, Hobbes, you wrote: H> Hello, Skorodum, you wrote: S>> Is not present. Responsibility carries only the person who has given the order. H> it that, from concentration camps in vain shot executioners? Executioners just did not shoot. Shot principals. And it is correct.

59

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, IncremenTop, you wrote: IT> Though the Alpha which has been given the order on liquidation  is more than me , but it sabotaged it. The first time the such I hear, it is possible , is interesting who such order could give, if it was.

60

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, pagid, you wrote: P> Hello, Skorodum, you wrote: S>> the Link to article of charter  the Russian Federation. P> responsibility carry not under charters, and on . Article 42, item 2 the Person who has committed a deliberate crime to execute certainly illegal order or the instruction, carries a criminal liability in accordance with general practice. Violation of certainly illegal order or the instruction eliminates a criminal liability. I think that keywords here "a deliberate crime" and "certainly": it can be turned in any side if needed. All depends on desire to find extreme, but the state is normally interested in maintenance of current system and will not generate unnecessary doubts at executors of orders without emergency. The use of weapons normally is based on army/police on necessity to avoid  harms and in advance to foresee that better, and that it is impossible is worse.

61

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, pagid, you wrote: P> Why nonsense? In the law there is a word "certainly", it is important not only in this article, but for all . And if all was simple, unambiguous and is formalized, also courts were not necessary. In application to this article the word can "certainly mean, for example, the order to shoot prisoners of war, deliberately to kill civil, or something to steal from a warehouse adjacent (or the) /, yes it is a lot of still everything, and to understand it quite well for the executor of the order. I do not know, here it is difficult to argue. Subjectively, at me such state of affairs associates only with words"brothel"and"lawlessness".  such laws which objectively regulate nothing. At which the real decision will be accepted any narrow group of persons. It is necessary to hope only that this group of people will be guided by is exceptional pure thoughts.

62

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, Skorodum, you wrote: S> I Think that keywords here "a deliberate crime" and "certainly": it can be turned in any side if needed. All depends on desire to find extreme, but the state is normally interested in maintenance of current system and will not generate unnecessary doubts at executors of orders without emergency. It gives the chance to the executor to refuse performance of the criminal order and thus to realize that the insubordination it did not make a crime. S> the use of weapons normally is based on army/police on necessity to avoid  harms and in advance to foresee that better, and that it is impossible is worse. At army/police concerning a use of weapons is enough  strict rules. And if the military man understands that executes the order given by whom it is necessary, which execution is worked in staffs and . it will be difficult to it to refuse to fulfill it referred to illegality, and here if understands that the order proceeds from the commander-petty tyrant and the criminal, the executor as well as it is necessary to the person and the citizen is obliged to make attempt not to give crime to be made.

63

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, rg45, you wrote: R> Remains only  that this group of people will be guided by is exceptional pure thoughts. Just relieving from the executor of responsibility for performance of certainly criminal order it is necessary to hope that its commanders are guided by is exceptional pure thoughts, and it no means always so.

64

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, pagid, you wrote: P> It gives the chance to the executor to refuse performance of the criminal order and thus to realize that the insubordination it did not make a crime. The problem that the criminal order or not during that moment precisely is not known is only judgement of the executor and on an estimation it can have not enough time and in a stressful situation. And universal norm of morals here at all do not approach. Even the unambiguous estimation of the state (court) would seem can change in due course depending on again opened circumstances and the political order. S>> the use of weapons normally is based on army/police on necessity to avoid  harms and in advance to foresee that better, and that it is impossible is worse. P> At army/police concerning a use of weapons is enough  strict rules. P> And if the military man understands that executes the order given by whom it is necessary, which execution is worked in staffs and . it will be difficult to it to refuse to fulfill it referred to illegality, and here if understands that the order proceeds from the commander-petty tyrant and the criminal, the executor as well as it is necessary to the person and the citizen is obliged to make attempt not to give crime to be made. As at you all is simple on a paper...

65

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, Skorodum, you wrote: S> the Problem that the criminal order or not during that moment precisely is not known is only judgement of the executor and on an estimation it can have not enough time and in a stressful situation. S> as at you all is simple on a paper... And in life much happens not simply. But on the other hand it is not necessary also far-fetched situations in style of recent arguing "whom to press the grandma or the child" in advance to assume.

66

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, pagid, you wrote: P> Hello, Skorodum, you wrote: S>> the Problem that the criminal order or not during that moment precisely is not known is only judgement of the executor and on an estimation it can have not enough time and in a stressful situation. S>> as at you all is simple on a paper... P> And in life much happens not simply. In most cases . will not spread responsibility to the executor and executors know it. It as it works, though exceptions happen also the law is specially written so that it could be turned in any side if needed. At us even in contemporary history it is so much points at issue in this respect that about the law better and not to recall. P> but on the other hand it is not necessary also far-fetched situations in style of recent arguing "whom to press the grandma or the child" in advance to assume. Here it is perfect anything decided. An essence of military conflicts such that very often it is necessary to make not so humane decisions.

67

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, IncremenTop, you wrote: ZS>> It is called power crisis in a terminal stage. Like the power is, but anybody (well or very many) does not execute its orders. I think in a situation which was added for August of 91st, Union disorder was not the worst choice. Dorugoe business that this situation could be avoided... IT> Is not present, to find true parts always it is possible. It is possible to bribe the most unscrupulous as Yeltsin made or to force to execute the order, but... It is also memoirs, and in interview involved - people blood did not want. Were afraid to spill it. And it is completely joined to their behavior. When true parts should be searched or bribed, it is a sure sign of crisis of the power. And so, yes, blood did not want, and it is possible also civil war.

68

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

69

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, Marty, you wrote: M> Hello, Vasisualy Pupkindt, you wrote: >> To me other fragment was engraved in the memory. An hour military warehouse filled up underground, and it led 9 years in loneliness being drawn by duty under the charter. >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LppOXvajIuA >> Here it is the present Russian character and that that the ridge is called. M> 45 minutes something long to look. It that, not , and a real case? Than it ate 9 years, where 9 years spoiled, at least? Did not look, but once read, I think it this case. During 1  receding Russian parts undermined an input in army warehouses in roofing felts catacombs, whether caves. Only an input (not locations), with calculation that then when return - have a ready warehouse. The warehouse location was kept a secret, the input was the only thing. Reversely there Russian and did not come. In 9 years, after war and revolution (and this place appeared in territory of Czechia), (and now the emigrant) specified one of officers of that time in this place. When an input dug out - therefrom it was distributed type "stand, I will shoot". It appeared, when blew up - inside there was a sentry. And here he also lived 9 years all these there, immured. Stores in a warehouse were, both the foodstuffs and regimentals. There were problems with light. And with water - to it it should be collected, and according to washing - it simply took every week a new set of clothes.

70

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, alpha21264, you wrote: A> If it is serious, this sentry filled up underground. A> therefore this history is closer to Robinzonu Crusoe, than to soldier's duty performance more likely. Yes, is faster so. A> And it is strange that it for so much time did not try to be dug out. It not simply filled up - the input has been purposefully undermined. And it not simply earth, and rock, there for certain were blocks which to it physically not to shift.

71

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, snautSH, you wrote: >> When brains are not present, a bullet in a head it not a problem. >> And if it is serious, speech in these two cases about different situations. 9 years it very much a wide interval of time for one person. Some change the outlook and without exterior circumstances, including is simple because at them the realized sight at the life generally is not present. SH> Mda, the label sarcasm all the same is necessary. But I will explain - my citation to that your link the same poppycock as well as the story of Shvejka Yes is not present, this fact , and afterwards also it is checked repeatedly up.

72

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

Hello, alexqc, you wrote: A> there Can be matter is not in "Soviet vs American", and in "a Seaman vs the Bomber"? Also what destroyed by bombing Soviet ? Too after all Americans burned Dresden.

73

Re: The Soviet officer vs the American officer

> Here it is the present Russian character and that that the ridge is called. Well it such is not unique, and Russian not the most proof tin tell-tales. Is and  fidelity to the order illogically