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Topic: How instincts and other programs are inherited?

There is at me a cat. It took away from  when it was small enough kitten. That is hardly he had time to get worthy cat's education. Since then it especially with anybody did not communicate, lives in apartment. However it possesses difficult enough and typical cat's behavior. It digs in the excrement, it digs in the meal if something remains (well at least tries to dig in), it something there , well in general at whom is pets, probably understand that many behavior are not trivial and explicitly inherited from ancestors. Serializovannoe representation , responsible for a complex  as it seems to me, will occupy essential enough volume. In DNA of the person of only one and a half gigabyte of the data and from them as I understand, the lion's share stupidly , remaining is responsible for physical development of an organism, that is what fabrics where will be synthesized. I.e. In DNA iron is encoded, it is stupid to grow up hundred gram of the cat's brain (or how many there at it). And how this brain is initialized by the initial data? The behavior so after all the brain controls all organism, and it too serious control programs on maintenance important  functions is fine. I.e. whence the insertion is flooded?

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Re: How instincts and other programs are inherited?

Hello, vsb, you wrote: vsb> There is at me a cat. It took away from  when it was small enough kitten. That is hardly he had time to get worthy cat's education. Since then it especially with anybody did not communicate, lives in apartment. However it possesses difficult enough and typical cat's behavior. It digs in the excrement, it digs in the meal if something remains (well at least tries to dig in), it something there , well in general at whom is pets, probably understand that many behavior are not trivial and explicitly inherited from ancestors. Today only read https://lenta.ru/news/2018/05/15/memory, than you not a variant of transmission of instincts?

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Re: How instincts and other programs are inherited?

Hello, vsb, you wrote: Here, of course, it is necessary to tell that there is no separately a computer and an insertion: they are not separable, if we speak about a brain. It not numeral, but an analog device. Still it is possible to add the expression about 1.5 Gb of the data. The data is not the information to which in DNA has more. That you name "insertion" the strong influence renders not only the data from DNA, but also development: chemistry of a parent womb, an external environment. From identical zygotes (theoretical experience) at different mothers (even at one mother, but in different exterior conditions!) Various individuals grow. And all "insertion" - instincts is put is hardware. Ability to dig in a shit and ability to breathe or swallow is one and too, only was formed later. But yes is all is in DNA, it is coded by genes. That one gene can encode difficult responses of a difficult organism says only that in the organism mechanisms already contain, and genes only include them or ungear. And in aggregate all genes give combinatorial explosion of the combinations - from here and complexity, from here and a variety.

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Re: How instincts and other programs are inherited?

Hello, vsb, you wrote: vsb> There is at me a cat. It took away from  when it was small enough kitten. That is hardly he had time to get worthy cat's education. Since then it especially with anybody did not communicate, lives in apartment. However it possesses difficult enough and typical cat's behavior. It digs in the excrement, it digs in the meal if something remains (well at least tries to dig in), it something there , well in general at whom is pets, probably understand that many behavior are not trivial and explicitly inherited from ancestors. vsb> Serializovannoe representation , responsible for a complex  as it seems to me, will occupy essential enough volume. In DNA of the person of only one and a half gigabyte of the data and from them as I understand, the lion's share stupidly , remaining is responsible for physical development of an organism, that is what fabrics where will be synthesized. I.e. In DNA iron is encoded, it is stupid to grow up hundred gram of the cat's brain (or how many there at it). And how this brain is initialized by the initial data? The behavior so after all the brain controls all organism, and it too serious control programs on maintenance important  functions is fine. I.e. whence the insertion is flooded? One of key singularities of a biological brain is an effective creation of "associations". We take a certain generalized space of input signals: sight, taste, sense of smell, tactile sensations, a pain, hearing and so on. Also there is a certain space of possible responses of an organism: impellent any activity, product of sounds, stimulation of various internal processes (type of hormonal secretion). The biological brain builds associations between various signals of both these spaces, it both conditioned reflexes and training and storage which define various tactics and behavior strategy. It is obvious that a part of these associations already  at a birth. At the live beings few capable to training, almost all associations are stitched in advance and they right after births are capable to operate under the put programs without training. At the higher animals and the person in particular the considerable part of associations is formed during life and training. Therefore after a birth they are absolutely helpless, but are capable to floppy adaptation to a changeable external environment. And so, answering your question: "insertions" are not present, there is definitely generated structure of parts of a brain which naturally defines similar "associations". Flatter - turnes on .  - the hinder leg and so on twitches. That is it not a question of certain "data", and a structure question. All at a hardware level. A little chaotically wrote, but, I hope, the idea is clear.

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Re: How instincts and other programs are inherited?

Hello, v6, you wrote: v6> And so, answering your question: "insertions" are not present, there is definitely generated structure of parts of a brain which naturally defines similar "associations". Flatter - turnes on .  - the hinder leg and so on twitches. That is it not a question of certain "data", and a structure question. All at a hardware level. How much I remember, all neurons identical as a matter of fact, differ only a changeable chemical compound which defines how electrical pulse is transferred. That is the dial-up of these adjustments of neurons it also is a brain insertion. It seems surprising that it is all went in in DNA. Well it is fine, means so. Though evolution  to present I can not at all. Type at any cat the gene which caused appearance of neural communications which cause paw twitchings casually changed after it spoiled, and this change appeared  favourable.

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Re: How instincts and other programs are inherited?

Hello, vsb, you wrote: v6>> And so, answering your question:" Insertions "are not present, there is definitely generated structure of parts of a brain which naturally defines similar"associations". Flatter - turnes on .  - the hinder leg and so on twitches. That is it not a question of certain"data", and a structure question. All at a hardware level. vsb> how much I remember, all neurons identical as a matter of fact, differ only a changeable chemical compound which defines how electrical pulse is transferred. That is the dial-up of these adjustments of neurons it also is a brain insertion. Neurons the amount aksonov-dendritov can also identical, but, connecting different sections and brain structures can be a miscellaneous. That is the brain is not initially completely a homogeneous structure. vsb> It seems surprising that it is all went in in DNA. Well it is fine, means so. If I correctly understood, DNA is not simply plane data structure. There there are different switches/activators, the same part  can be used in different places etc. That is it is faster a certain generator. Here it is possible to recall by way of illustration  where in demos 4 the procedural generators creating 3 the worlds and music on the volume on orders exceeding source code are sewn up. On this subject I can recommend Markova "a complexity Birth". vsb> Though evolution  to present I can not at all. Type at any cat the gene which caused appearance of neural communications which cause paw twitchings casually changed after it spoiled, and this change appeared  favourable. Millions years, billions billions kittens and all turns out. Especially variability at each replication is put initially. About "paw twitching" it, of course, simplification was. Obviously, at first there was an ability to dig and was fixed in space of "accessible actions", and then because of mutations was  with appropriate action and the association appeared  useful.

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Re: How instincts and other programs are inherited?

Hello, Kernan, you wrote: K> Today only read https://lenta.ru/news/2018/05/15/memory, than you not a variant of transmission of instincts? That is again dug out molecular model of storage?

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Re: How instincts and other programs are inherited?

Hello, vsb, you wrote: vsb> How much I remember, all neurons identical as a matter of fact, differ only a changeable chemical compound which defines how electrical pulse is transferred. That is the dial-up of these adjustments of neurons it also is a brain insertion. It seems surprising that it is all went in in DNA. Well it is fine, means so. Though evolution  to present I can not at all. Type at any cat the gene which caused appearance of neural communications which cause paw twitchings casually changed after it spoiled, and this change appeared  favourable. DNA also it is not necessary to describe all. DNA it simply program of development of an organism. The same brain is much more difficult, than can contain in itself DNA. It is possible to result analogy to fractals. The known fractal of Mondelbrota nontrivial enough also contains many interesting details and areas, but thus is easily described.

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Re: How instincts and other programs are inherited?

Hello, vsb, you wrote: the Answer as though arises by itself - from a cloud

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Re: How instincts and other programs are inherited?

Hello, vsb, you wrote: vsb> in DNA iron is encoded, it is stupid to grow up hundred gram of the cat's brain (or how many there at it). And how this brain is initialized by the initial data? A brain - not the general-purpose processor with system of the elementary commands, and specialized, with set  units. That is, "iron" in DNA is encoded already able to fulfill a row typical (and rather difficult) functions, they only are in some measure adjusted by the subsequent training. Well and "one and a half gigabyte" even if to consider that it is real data capacity of DNA - very much great volume if to encode effectively. It we now, getting used to long-term wastefulness and one thousand - and more multiple  programs and the data, we suppose this volume the small. In 60-70 organizations from hundreds-thousand persons, for years solving difficult scientific tasks, could not turn out such code amount, the data and results.

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Re: How instincts and other programs are inherited?

Hello, vsb, you wrote: vsb> the insertion whence is flooded? A question to  the interesting. Basically, in an egg there should be all not only about an amount of pinches and the form of pens, but also how to cackle and crow, and, how to be afraid of a kite, and about that in small river not to climb. If for a kitten still it is possible to assume that on a course of pre-natal development something is transferred from mum-cat for a chicken deduced in a stupid callous incubator, such variant does not roll. It is possible to assume, of course, that egg is connected to  to the world of ideas and "hen" extorts  from an eidos, but let's better mad not now, and somehow another time Despite tremendous scientific progress (really shaking, without everyone ), on this question, as far as I understand, the distinct answer is not present, and it is even not clear that this answer can represent itself. But already now it is possible to look, what tools with which help it is possible to try  at us is. At first, there is a concept of Kolmogorov complexity. Egg - the program, and an incubator bringing heat - the general-purpose calculator. If to renounce from  with prorolling  from  an eidos complexity of a hatching chicken cannot be above complexity of egg. Or even, if to accept for true that fiber and a yolk shows no more, than a building material, not above complexity impregnated . Secondly, Benua Mandelbrota's diligence we know that not always visible complexity corresponds to true (). The Mandelbrot set looks  difficult, especially if to consider it under the big magnification, but Kolmogorov complexity - ten lines of a source code. Basically, on a problem, but it is necessary to understand quite good stopping that fractals - very capricious pieces. For example, it is impossible to twist a little bit algorithm so that here was specific this flourish of Mandelbrot set was tore slightly in another way. Any editing of a source code transforms at once result into something absolutely another. At once all. That is  the principle is certainly useful (and will for certain be involved by the mother-nature to the full extent), but one  a chicken it does not turn out it. Thirdly, we know about DNA. This piece, likely, a unique thing similar to the text in impregnated . Therefore we  in it a finger also say that here it, the information. It is more than anything similar to the text we do not find and fondly we consider that except DNA in a cell no information is present. In our marvelous new century of information technologies we got used to that the data happens only numeral, but it, of course, naivety. The data happens also, at least, analog. And that is interesting, it is impossible to measure the analog data in bits and to apply to them concept of Kolmogorov complexity: Numeral capacity (infinity are equal in bits) and Kolmogorov complexity of any analog value. If in impregnated  there is something analog (and it there is, because all but   in DNA there analog) there is nothing surprising that infinitely difficult  turns to infinitely difficult chicken. There is no that logic to which it would contradict. Fifthly, except the old kind naive information theory oriented on date transmission in communication networks, there is hardly more specified theory according to which the information is a combination of a signal and a context. That is it is necessary to look not only at the text (in our case it is DNA), but on ability this text to interpret. Even with reference to our literal texts besides texts there is still a knowledge of language, convergence on word meanings, understanding what for this or that is told here and now. This knowledge, convergence and understanding - too the information. That is except actually sequence  (text) in a cell the abyss of other information making a context for this text is simply obliged to be. Thus, I remind, the answer to a question "the insertion" at us whence is flooded is not present. The question is opened. Themselves we will not deceive. Generally, open questions it is not necessary to be frightened. It is absolutely normal. "Scientists do not know..." - well, they much that does not know. If they already knew all, laboratories could be closed, and scientists to disperse. Open questions are not problems, and tasks.

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Re: How instincts and other programs are inherited?

Hello, vsb, you wrote: vsb> There is at me a cat. It took away from  when it was small enough kitten. That is hardly he had time to get worthy cat's education. Since then it especially with anybody did not communicate, lives in apartment. However it possesses difficult enough and typical cat's behavior. Give it a mouse (live). You will see  a bug - it will suffice it (the hunting instinct), but further he does not know that with it to do and releases.

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Re: How instincts and other programs are inherited?

Hello, Voblin, you wrote: V> the Question to  the interesting. Basically, in an egg there should be all not only about an amount of pinches and the form of pens, but also how to cackle and crow, and, how to be afraid of a kite, and about that in small river not to climb. There is  a subject - . To google by words " and Lorentz". In small river chickens climb (with a deadly outcome), if their mum - a duck.

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Re: How instincts and other programs are inherited?

Hello, alpha21264, you wrote: A> There is  a subject - . To google by words " and Lorentz". A> In small river chickens climb (with a deadly outcome), if their mum - a duck. A subject cool, but a question not that instincts sometimes are mistaken, and that they generally are and more often work. Yes, the chicken can confuse a duck with a hen and  where not a trace but if to think of that, how much technically the challenging task of implementation of the independent agent capable with some reliability to identify a hen and to follow it, retaining balance on two pinches, the head goes around.

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Re: How instincts and other programs are inherited?

Hello, alpha21264, you wrote: A> Give it a mouse (live). A> you Will see  a bug - it will suffice it (the hunting instinct), Some cats generally jump aside from mice and are afraid to approach to them. So, , all the same here it is more  the received experience during lifetime, instead of something congenital.