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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: the Logic theory does not depend on the Universe generally. The same as also mathematics. The mathematics (well and a floor-mat of the logician as a particular) in itself does not allow to do any outputs about the Universe in which we live. People abstract things existing in the nature to certain mathematical structures and use results of mathematical reasonings on these structures. Where there "live" actually structures - the big question. Penrose, for example, considers that there is a world of ideas where they and live.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Logic it only a method of knowledge surrounding. Have the right to existence and other methods of knowledge. The main task in that the knowledge method was effective. At the person criterion of efficiency is the physical survival, technical progress. We make mental experiment. The person knowing logical laws we place in other Universe. He after that does not forget the logical laws. But in this Universe these logical laws work, but it is bad. For example, because physical laws so difficult and the environmental validity is so difficult and tangled that sense organs neither local forms of life, nor the person who has moved to this Universe, cannot make out where the reason, and where a consequence. We admit there everywhere, in  and  to the world, laws like laws of quantum mechanics known to us operate. Our logic in this Universe can be applied, but this application is restricted or at all has no sense. Local forms of life successfully use absolutely other methods of knowledge of the environmental validity. Far it is not necessary to walk. There are spheres of human life, where logic as the tool, it is badly applicable. These are various feelings, relations with an opposite sex, spiritual sphere. The logician can be applied to research love hormones, but with what from it to the poor person at whom private life is not added.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, igor-booch, you wrote: IB> Logic it only a method of knowledge surrounding. You tell it about logical thinking. The initial question was about the properties of the real world which has found reflection that people name "logic". IB> the environmental validity is so difficult and tangled that sense organs neither local forms of life, nor the person who has moved to this Universe, cannot make out where the reason, and where a consequence.  and how the person in our world can "make out", where the reason, and where a consequence? IB> the logician can be applied to research love hormones, but with what from it to the poor person at whom private life is not added. If private life the logician should be applied to creation of model of desirable private life first of all is not added. Then - to an estimation of realness and stability of this model. If the model looks realistic and steady, it is necessary to build model of the partner which can be inscribed in it. If its model also is quite realistic, it is possible to pass to search of the real representative. The problem of the majority that at it or not accurate model of relations, or it internally is contradictory, or it is insufficiently inscribed in a reality, or the partners, satisfying to it, meet extremely rarely, and the probability to find their algorithmic search is extremely small.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, Voblin, you wrote: V> but the author it is possible to understand - it, probably, slightly baffled that all our fine absolute trues appeared are carried in discharge of "tautology" and there appeared are logically shorted on itself. But after all  and logical closure on itself, that is the statement of type =, it too is a logic part, and whether the Universe where it will be not so is possible?

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB> the statement of type =, it too is a logic part, and whether the Universe where it will be not so is possible? To begin with not bad to be defined by that you understand under "And". If for "And" to accept, for example, "the Sun how star object", whether that will be "And at the moment of time t" equivalent "And at the moment of time t+1"? And if to accept "the Sun, how set of the elementary particles in a neighborhood of a certain point"? And at the same time to ask a question on, how unambiguously to define boundary of this neighborhood...

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, Evgenie Muzychenko, you wrote: I eat> Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB>> the statement of type =, it too is a logic part, and whether the Universe where it will be not so is possible? I eat> To begin with not bad to be defined by that you understand under "And". If for "And" to accept, for example, "the Sun how star object", whether that will be "And at the moment of time t" equivalent "And at the moment of time t+1"? And if to accept "the Sun, how set of the elementary particles in a neighborhood of a certain point"? And at the same time to ask a question on, how unambiguously to define boundary of this neighborhood... Accurate determinations without syntactic traps Are assumed.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB> But after all  and logical closure on itself, that is the statement of type =, it too is a logic part, and whether the Universe where it will be not so is possible? The Universe here at affairs. The tautology not is the fact about the Universe. It is the expression about herself.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, Voblin, you wrote: V> the Universe here at affairs. The tautology not is the fact about the Universe. It is the expression about herself. But the essence of a tautology, principles of its operation, whether are they something to the higher, above laws of any Universe, or they can be broken?

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB> accurate determinations without syntactic traps Are assumed. Perhaps, you mean semantics?

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, Evgenie Muzychenko, you wrote: I eat> Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB>> accurate determinations without syntactic traps Are assumed. I eat> Perhaps, you mean semantics? I am afraid to tell "yes" not to receive in the answer "but if to redefine concept" semantics "or to imagine reasonable radio-waves for which such word simply is not present...".

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB>>> accurate determinations without syntactic traps Are assumed. I eat>> Perhaps, you mean semantics? TB> I am afraid to tell "yes" not to receive in the answer "but if to redefine concept" semantics "or to imagine reasonable radio-waves for which such word simply is not present...". " all time tells This in the languages which continuation does not know".

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB> But the essence of a tautology, principles of its operation, whether are they something to the higher, above laws of any Universe, or they can be broken? Not, anything the higher it is not. We consider, for example, a tautology "2+2=4". Its sense that if "2" it that we mean when we we draw this flourish if "+" it too about what we already agreed, and the same with "=" and "4" to the expression we inevitably should attribute a predicate "true". If, of course, "expression", "predicate", "attributing" and "true" is about what we agreed. Thus the validity "2+2=4" at all does not guarantee that if we put "2+2" to a real reality situation, we will have "4". For example, if we plant in one cell two rabbits and two doe-rabbits in half a year in this cell we find not mandatory 4. Or if on Monday in the street there were 2 degrees and on Tuesday too 2 it does not mean that in the beginning of week there were 4 degrees. In any way it is impossible to use an in itself tautology. But if it to cross the fact (which absolutely reliable piece on determination not is, and it is capable to be true, and then , and it appears that it false, or on the contrary) tautologies become  tools. For example, supplying "2+2=4" it is comprehensible by a reliable hypothesis that rabbits have not time to be multiplied, open a cell for days and solemnly to find out correspondence of the theory to a prediction. In the same way, the tautology about that the hypotenuse square is equal to the total of squares of legs, yields comprehensible result in conditions when "curvature of space to neglect". That is when freakish and infinitely various reality appears geometry adequately corresponding to axioms. To say that tautologies "above"... Well, I do not know. What we will use in an altimeter role?

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: the Subject left in  "in the theory so, and in practice so", this all not considered factors which too can be applied logically. Give here such trick: whether there is a Universe which includes those and only those Universes which do not include itself? If we tell "are not present, because by a simple reasoning we come to the contradiction" then, we applied  logic and recognized that it operates on all Universes. If we tell "yes, but a method in essence  our brains" it already generally cannot be refuted another story and such statement. Here it is impossible to tell anything precisely, it is possible to philosophize, but not at level "and let's present that statements are inexact". Other question: whether "there is a Universe which inhabitants got over in all other Universes and exterminated all inhabitants of all other Universes in all times"? Here again a variant of the answer two:" No because by a simple reasoning we come to the contradiction, after all we are live ", or" yes, but a method in essence  our brains ".

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB> It because rules others. I ask, whether if the Universes where by the same rules there will be other outputs, instead of about linguistics. At all a fact in evidence of existence of any other Universe

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, pagid, you wrote: P> the Logic it did not undress mathematics for  when I read the local policy, such sensation is added

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

IB>> Logic it only a method of knowledge surrounding. I eat> It you speak about logical thinking. The initial question was about the properties of the real world which has found reflection that people name "logic". On me of the logician it not property of the real world. The logic is language of the description of world around. The computer can work with the image dividing it into pixels. The person can work with world around dividing it into logical statements. But the computer can work and with vector graphics. Each mode of work with a drawing has an application field, merits and demerits. As also the logic is not a unique effective remedy of the analysis (sharing) of the real world. To tell that logic it is property of the real world, all the same what to tell that Russian is property of the real world. . The thinking in Russian is finite (by analogy to logical thinking) too property of the real world is not. I eat> Hm and how the person in our world can "make out", where the reason, and where a consequence? Not in all phenomena watched by me, but in many I can make out cause and effect: for example, I know that if I will jump up, then I will mandatory land. At me always works and for life enough.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, Los Chtostrjaslos, you wrote: > Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB>> It because rules others. I ask, whether if the Universes where by the same rules there will be other outputs, instead of about linguistics. > at all a fact in evidence of existence of any other Universe It too is true. But there are bases to assume, being based on our observations that with some probability they are.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB> It too is true. But there are bases to assume, being based on our observations that with some probability they are. Here among them with some probability there are Universes where by the same rules there will be other outputs

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, alzt, you wrote: A> But depends on the device of a head of the mathematician. If it is equivalent to the machine of Turing laws will be same. If the Universe resolves some operations which are impossible at us, or forbids any also the mathematics will be another. Here a problem - just that we yet did not invent any computing abstraction more powerfully, than the Machine of Turing. Then that, for example, the break problem is incapable of solution in any "Universe". Or, say, Kolmogorov complexity is not computable - again irrespective of the Universe.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, qwertyuiop, you wrote: A>> But depends on the device of a head of the mathematician. Q> numbers do not depend on a head of the mathematician. They are identical, in whatever numeration system registered. Numbers exist only in a head as idea. If the head is not capable to understand for any reasons that such numbers it is possible to consider that they are not present. Anybody in the given Universe cannot study any properties of our numbers. A>> if the Universe resolves some operations which are impossible at us, or forbids any also the mathematics will be another. Q> that the Universe means "resolves"? She not the public prosecutor, they cannot forbid anything. Also what means "operations"? Addition of one stone to another is one operation in any Universe. The Universe can differ from each other strongly. We consider not real installed, and invented. Operation is an action which can make a certain device, for example a brain, in the Universe. Operation example - to add two numbers, or to write down the information on any carrier, or to count indefinitely. If to start to study the invented Universes with the strange laws it can appear that some of them quite could exist. Only anybody seriously will not be engaged in it.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB> I mean rules of type A=A or A or not A or not (A and not A), well and more artful. Whether TB> they depend on the Universe? Or there are Universes where other outputs are deduced from the same axioms? Esteemed comments, went nuts from illiteracy. Children, you though logically in hands held one textbook? At first, logic not one, they happen different, as much as necessary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-classical_logic it is simply formal system, rule set which describe as we c we can purely build expressions and operate with them. We set rules, and it is not important, in what Universe it happens, the same rule set leads to the same outputs while other logic with other rule set will yield other result. The most known examples - about double negation, about a principle eliminated the third. There is a huge layer of constructive mathematics which costs on constructive logic where these principles do not work where the reducto ad absurdum proof is not considered the proof. Open the book under the type theory, under the theory of programming languages, in the same place the intuitionistic (constructive) logic in the base sits, as a matter of fact. You programmers, about correspondence of Curry-Howard are obliged to know, and what there logic, remembers? Or further the textbook "JavaScript for 21 day" did not open anything?

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, D. Mon, you wrote: DM> the same rule set leads to the same outputs And here about it I and I ask. If it so, that is certain "a method to do outputs", which above any universal laws?

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, alzt, you wrote: Q>> Numbers do not depend on a head of the mathematician. They are identical, in whatever numeration system registered. A> numbers exist only in a head as idea. Can be. But it is surprising that developing these ideas the person found out that all in the nature happens under laws which are described by those or other mathematical formulas. How it happens? The author: qwertyuiop Date: 13.05 19:09 A> If to start to study the invented Universes with the strange laws it can appear that some of them quite could exist. Only anybody seriously will not be engaged in it. Well why. God - too invented concept, but it does not hinder some it to consider and write to the dissertation on theology.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: DM>> the same rule set leads to the same outputs TB> And here about it I and I ask. If it so, that is certain "a method to do outputs", which above any universal laws? Outputs become exceptional by rules which we in this logic and set. The logic content as formal system just also consists in how we can build expressions and by what rules from them to receive other expressions.