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Topic: Whether is the logic the absolute?

I mean rules of type A=A or A or not A or not (A and not A), well and more artful. Whether they depend on the Universe? Or there are Universes where other outputs are deduced from the same axioms? I not about restatements, type "give we redefine 3 and 4 places and will be 2+2=3", namely about logic elements. It is clear, what any our reasoning will become in our logic and consequently it will be possible to tell "and in that Universe it not so", that is anything it is impossible to prove 100 %, but can eat any more serious researches on this subject?

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: Here matter is not in the logician, and in linguistics. If to assume that there are the beings communicating not by words, and for example mental transmission of emotions will bring your attention to the question for those beings the wrong.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, Amygdala, you wrote: A> Here matter is not in the logician, and in linguistics. If to assume that there are the beings communicating not by words, and for example mental transmission of emotions will bring your attention to the question for those beings the wrong. Why, I do not see communication. Logic and a method of its record on something (in something) among themselves are not connected.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB> I mean rules of type A=A or A or not A or not (A and not A), well and more artful. Whether TB> they depend on the Universe? Or there are Universes where other outputs are deduced from the same axioms? This question is equivalent to, whether there is a Universe in which any other mathematics is possible. By the way, as the mathematics exists exceptional in a head of mathematicians, from the Universe as that, it too does not depend.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, Pzz, you wrote: Pzz> This question is equivalent to, whether there is a Universe in which any other mathematics is possible. Yes.> By the way as the mathematics exists exceptional in a head of mathematicians, from the Universe as that, it too does not depend. You consider, what in our Universe mathematicians with other mathematics, and the worker are possible?

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: All - a perception question. In the Universe there is no logic, in the Universe there is no mathematics. Even moreover - in the Universe there are no physics laws. And is only allowing to predict linguistics. No more.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB> I mean rules of type A=A or A or not A or not (A and not A), well and more artful. Whether TB> they depend on the Universe? Or there are Universes where other outputs are deduced from the same axioms? Is. And far it is not necessary to walk, it is our Universe. For example, A=A it is impossible to deduce in any feeble substructural logicians. There where the object cannot be used more once, and here it meets twice. Generally a deducibility depends on inference rules and from a dial-up of axioms (and still, certainly, from a dial-up of admissible sheaves and quantifiers).

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, deniok, you wrote: D> Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB>> I mean rules of type A=A or A or not A or not (A and not A), well and more artful. Whether TB>> they depend on the Universe? Or there are Universes where other outputs are deduced from the same axioms? D> is. And far it is not necessary to walk, it is our Universe. D> for example, A=A it is impossible to deduce in any feeble substructural logicians. It because rules others. I ask, whether if the Universes where by the same rules there will be other outputs, instead of about linguistics.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB> It because rules others. I ask, whether if the Universes where by the same rules there will be other outputs, instead of about linguistics. That it not to be, give we postulate their existence and business with the end. Time we abandoned boundaries of consistent officialisms.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote:>> By the way as the mathematics exists exceptional in a head of mathematicians, from the Universe as that, it too does not depend. TB> you consider, what in our Universe mathematicians with other mathematics, and the worker are possible? I consider that it does not depend on the Universe.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, deniok, you wrote: D> That it not to be, give it is postulated their existence and business with the end. Time we abandoned boundaries of consistent officialisms. Well , give we postulate, whether there can be a Universe in which development came so far, what they could be moved in time and between the different Universes without restrictions? If yes, whether that can be, what they visited all other Universes in other times and came into contact to each of their inhabitants, and their inhabitants know it? Our logic says that is not present, differently we them would see and knew that it they. But whether there can be other logic after which contradictions in it are not present? Without type restatements "saw but did not understand that it they". If we understand, what is so any restrictions on laws in any Universe then it turns out any logic which is stronger than any Universe?

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB> If we understand, what is so any restrictions on laws in any Universe then it turns out any logic which is stronger than any Universe? The true logic is true in all Universes. But in most cases - to people not to logic (even in our Universe), therefore they are ready to cast into the most terrible torments of others proceeding from backward momentary  or interest, without giving itself counting in that that at anybody in the Universe cannot be better or worse life than at others - on limiting reviewing of a time interval. (Well i.e. burn nobody alive - more often or less often than others) - so all the same has  sense to save balance between "personal bloodthirstiness" and a reason voice. I.e. roughly speaking, in the light of the aforesaid - the logic universal continues to operate always, but all (people) in the world operate so - as though other people do not exist. . Exactly so - how much they (other people) are not presented - in their psychoemotional perception.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, xma, you wrote: xma> but in most cases - to people not to logic (even in our Universe), the Logic it did not undress mathematics for , and skill necessary in thinking process.... <<RSDN@Home 1.0.0 alpha 5 rev. 0>>

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, pagid, you wrote: xma>> but in most cases - to people not to logic (even in our Universe), P> the Logic it did not undress mathematics for , and skill necessary in thinking process. Well I about the elementary logic - in a key of that that the more you will burn "witches" (speech for example about abbeys in the Middle Ages), the it will appear on their place more. I.e. irrespective of who creates shit - disentangle everything, but certainly it is clear - that wordly affairs of all people on a planet - will not follow. P> the Logic is skill necessary in thinking process. Alas, even having the highest skills in logical thinking - errors are inevitable that is brightly shown for example at designing and implementation enough difficult program systems.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, Pzz, you wrote: Pzz> This question is equivalent to, whether there is a Universe in which any other mathematics is possible. By the way, as the mathematics exists exceptional in a head of mathematicians, from the Universe as that, it too does not depend. Too wanted to write about it. Sciences can be divided on humanitarian - which study that is created by people - and natural, studying that exists irrespective of people. The mathematics costs as though independently. On the one hand, it is as though invented by people. But with another if one person supposes one apple and another one them becomes two. And the result does not depend on people. People only designate an amount of apples in digits, abstract from apples, define new arithmetical actions, open presence of irrational numbers, methods of the decision of the equations, trigonometric functions, infinite series, differential and integral calculus. . Also it appears that all in the nature happens under laws which are described by those or other mathematical formulas. How it happens? Whence the nature knows?

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, Amygdala, you wrote: A> the Logic does not exist without ,  and  logicians. And transmission and  logicians is tightly fastened on linguistics. You speak exceptional about (nearby) to the human logic, from anthropocentrism positions. Which is that other, as reflection of the events watched in world around. In a typical star of principal sequence there is a merge of kernels of hydrogen, but not their decay - here to you simultaneously negation and contrasts. Two molecules having to each other affinity approached, and united in one - here to you implication. A threshold of breakthrough of the dielectric interval, depending simultaneously from pressure and width - here to you simultaneously conjunction and a disjunction. A> present that you appeared in the world where all round you is such here white noise. All! And, it not a problem of your sight or a brain, all really such. And you know that in this world there are objects, the nature and even live beings. But you cannot select them. You do not see generally any communications in the world. What for them to see? In any world which we in a state to present, by all means there are processes and the events connected to them. Hence, there are also dependences between these events, finding reflection in the logician of any beings, capable to exist in such world.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: TB> I mean rules of type A=A or A or not A or not (A and not A), well and more artful. Whether TB> they depend on the Universe? Or there are Universes where other outputs are deduced from the same axioms? TB> I not about restatements, type "give we redefine 3 and 4 places and will be 2+2=3", namely about logic elements. TB> it is clear, what any our reasoning will become in our logic and consequently it will be possible to tell "and in that Universe it not so", that is anything it is impossible to prove 100 %, but can eat any more serious researches on this subject? According to Perminovu of the mathematician it is a product of a brain of the person which it applies to knowledge of an objective reality. The book is devoted the analysis of the philosophical questions connected to a problem of a substantiation mathematicians. The author offers in essence new approaches to the decision of these questions, based on understanding of the aprioristic nature initial mathematical to idealization. (My italics, CB) (C) Perminov V. Ja. Philosophy and the mathematics bases. - : Progress-tradition, 2001. - 320. So that the question is faster not about the Universe, and about learning reason.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, Pzz, you wrote: Pzz> This question is equivalent to, whether there is a Universe in which any other mathematics is possible. By the way, as the mathematics exists exceptional in a head of mathematicians, from the Universe as that, it too does not depend. But depends on the device of a head of the mathematician. If it is equivalent to the machine of Turing laws will be same. If the Universe resolves some operations which are impossible at us, or forbids any also the mathematics will be another.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, alzt, you wrote: A> But depends on the device of a head of the mathematician. If it is equivalent to the machine of Turing laws will be same. If the Universe resolves some operations which are impossible at us, or forbids any also the mathematics will be another. A complicated question. Heads of mathematicians so are badly studied that about them it is difficult to do any statements. In particular, I am not assured completely not that their heads  to the machine of Turing.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, alzt, you wrote: Pzz>> This question is equivalent to, whether there is a Universe in which any other mathematics is possible. By the way, as the mathematics exists exceptional in a head of mathematicians, from the Universe as that, it too does not depend. A> but depends on the device of a head of the mathematician. Numbers do not depend on a head of the mathematician. They are identical, in whatever numeration system registered. A> if the Universe resolves some operations which are impossible at us, or forbids any also the mathematics will be another. What does the Universe mean "resolves"? She not the public prosecutor, they cannot forbid anything. Also what means "operations"? Addition of one stone to another is one operation in any Universe.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, craft-brother, you wrote: CB> According to Perminovu of the mathematician it is a product of a brain of the person which it applies to knowledge of an objective reality. Here only there is a mass of mathematical objects which have been created absolutely abstractly, in a lift-off from a reality. And only after decades it found application in the real world.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, qwertyuiop, you wrote: Q> Addition of one stone to another is one operation in any Universe. Only in the Universe containing stones or other easily calculated objects.

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Re: Whether is the logic the absolute?

Hello, T4r4sB, you wrote: whether TB> the logic  the absolute Is? If absolutely in a simple way the answer - is not present. TB> but can eat any more serious researches on this subject? Yes it is full. For example, "Criticism of pure reason" Immanuila of the Band in the core about it. There it is called "the aprioristic synthetic opinions", and is very carefully researched. Generally, the book absolutely ingenious, though also extremely rigid in the use. Without any mystical nonsense. It is possible to state with confidence that as of now it will completely be coordinated with an available scientific pattern of the world (though at the moment of a spelling with it there was a problem because in the book the logical way deduces a space and time relativity, and it then was in wonder). If it would be desirable something really strong, I can recommend. Still there is a small and refined feature "the Logiko-philosophical treatise" Ludwig Vitgenstein. A cult thing. Has an a bit depressive ending, but it is possible to understand the author - it, probably, slightly baffled that all our fine absolute trues appeared are carried in discharge of "tautology" and there appeared are logically shorted on itself.