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Topic: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Sense of shame for the last acts implies a faith that you could arrive differently, but made it. I.e. that the choice is not predetermined, not defined by mutual definiteness of all phenomena and processes and depends on certain "free will" which is above a material world. As if you try to humiliate another - you believe that the person in the position is guilty itself. I.e. that it HAD a CHOICE to arrive differently, but it meaningly did not use it. .. You believe that the consciousness does not submit to universal relationship of cause and effect. Really - anybody from you will not accuse the computer of that that it made a wrong choice. After all it is algorithm - you it can launch one million times and a choice will be the same - all instructions fulfill equally. Even if add  and the choice will differ at each start of function - all the same the computer is not guilty, since cannot affect on  in any way. But why you offend each other, speak about fault, instead of concern one another as to the computer which simply works under the program?

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> But why you offend each other, speak about fault, instead of concern one another as to the computer which simply works under the program? Thus one person tries to recustomize the program of another to achieve from it desirable behavior in the future.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, ineaugh, you wrote: I> Thus one person tries to recustomize the program of another to achieve from it desirable behavior in the future. Waited for such answer. But is not present! To change the program it is possible the information. I.e. simply lead up to convergence that it is possible to fulfill such that and such instructions and to receive such that result. And when it is a question of insults, censure or about self-flagellation - that of the general with realignment of the program it has no anything. This consequence of that you trust in that that in the person there is SOMETHING that is adjusted  by a method. You do not receive the additional helpful information when you offend or when you offend yourselves.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> to Change the program it is possible the information. I.e. simply lead up to convergence that it is possible to fulfill such that and such instructions and to receive such that result. A singularity of architecture of human reason: emotionally colored information is remembered better. Reading in the book that  to steal badly, you will forget in a minute; whether a little that write. And when all your village gathers round you, showing to fingers and shouting with disgust grimaces: "the Shame to mean thief Shmj! Never in life you will be washed from perfect you of meanness! Us  from you and your vile affairs!" - after that both you, and others  hundred times think before repeating behavior leading to such result.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, ineaugh, you wrote: I> the Singularity of architecture of human reason: emotionally colored information is remembered better. Describe "emotionally colored" in scientific terms. I> reading in the book that  to steal badly, you will forget in a minute; whether a little that write. That the person did not forget something - it is possible to repeat some times and to result an illustration Here another. I> and when all your village gathers round you, showing to fingers and shouting with disgust grimaces: "the Shame to mean thief Shmj! Never in life you will be washed from perfect you of meanness! Us  from you and your vile affairs!" - After that both you, and others  hundred times think before repeating behavior leading to such result. The concept "shame" - implies a faith in a so-called freedom in choosing that the person is guilty, as itself selected to arrive so instead of differently. Implies that there is something above a matter and something that is above causally investigatory communication of the material interactions. Actually, I do not like the contradiction: 1. You or recognize that there is SOMETHING that is above the material relationship of cause and effect. Then yes, it is possible to shout "shame", it is possible to shame and so forth 2. Or tell that no shame can be - concept "shame" so obsolete, as anger of gods which it is necessary to be afraid. But is not present. You and  souls do not recognize. And a shame cannot refuse. After all agree - "gods punish you" - too can affect the person, but only in case of a faith in these gods. But unless is fair so to speak, if you know that gods are not present? The Same with a word "shame" is an equivalent "gods you punish".

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: I>> Thus one person tries to recustomize the program of another to achieve from it desirable behavior in the future. S> waited for such answer. But is not present! But yes! You simply do not rummage. S> to change the program it is possible the information. I.e. simply lead up to convergence that it is possible to fulfill such that and such instructions and to receive such that result.  so do not work. S> and when it is a question of insults, censure or about self-flagellation - that of the general with realignment of the program it has no anything. This consequence of that you trust in that that in the person there is SOMETHING that is adjusted  by a method. You do not receive the additional helpful information when you offend or when you offend yourselves. Important not only that speak, but also as speak. It too the information.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, andrey.desman, you wrote: AD> Cheloveki so do not work. To tell that "gods punish" - too works, if the person in it trusts. I do not deny that it works, but at the heart of all the FAITH. In a case with gods - a faith in Gods. In a case with fault - a faith in  to a shower. All is simple. If you are serial - that you do not need to frighten others of penalties of gods, whether not so? Similarly, it is not necessary to try to manipulate in words fault and a shame if you do not trust in  to a shower. But is not present, you are not ready to refuse with all the heart. And it is frequent and are not ready to refuse God, on it gross national product kisses a hand of the patriarch.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> But why you offend each other, speak about fault, instead of concern one another as to the computer which simply works under the program? If all  all is determined - both all actions, and feelings after these actions. For billions years up until that time the text of this message was already  If all is determined, but at any level there is the true randomness - too most; yes, this text was not known we (calculate) for billions years, but it appeared as result of difficult mixing of truly casual processes and a determinism. This variant is the closest to the modern scientific representations. And at last, if there is "free will". What is such knows nobody, it seems that for it the true elementary quality of consciousness is necessary, i.e. As a matter of fact elementary quality of difficult structures (that that consciousness - difficult structure, I think  it is not necessary, there at least difficult enough storage) variants - "hidden", i.e. such which our primitive reason cannot guess are potentially possible still. But that about them to speak, if about them nobody knows?

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, anonymouse2, you wrote: A> And at last if there is "free will". What is such knows nobody, it seems that for it the true elementary quality of consciousness is necessary, i.e. as a matter of fact elementary quality of difficult structures (that that consciousness - difficult structure, I think  it is not necessary, there at least difficult enough storage) A> variants - "hidden", i.e. such which our primitive reason cannot guess are potentially possible still. But that about them to speak, if about them nobody knows? We begin that the experiment proving that consciousness has already been delivered does not participate in a choice. That the choice happens some SECONDS prior to its realization. It is time. Secondly, scientifically it is not confirmed any "the true elementary quality" (that you mean, by the way?) Something speaking about presence  of a choice, capable to be beyond universal relationship of cause and effect. Yes, if the person trusts in gods - it can be intimidated a penalty of gods and it will work. Similarly if the person trusts in that that it has  a soul - he can be shamed and it will work. The sequence simply is required - understand that one follows from another. I.e. if you shame someone, accuse are automatically designates that you trust in  to a shower.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> I.e. if you shame someone, accuse are automatically designates that you trust in  to a shower. No, it can mean that in me - the determined automatic machine - so is put, only and only. But can mean and to a shower.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> If you are serial - that you do not need to frighten others of penalties of gods, whether not so? Similarly, it is not necessary to try to manipulate in words fault and a shame if you do not trust in  to a shower. No. Not important, in what the manipulator trusts, value has only that, in what the object of manipulation trusts.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, anonymouse2, you wrote: A> is not present, it can mean that in me - the determined automatic machine - so is put, only and only. A> but can mean and to a shower. What is put? You that sequentially try to operate.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, anonymous, you wrote: A> Is not present. Not important, in what the manipulator trusts, value has only that, in what the object of manipulation trusts. If you declare to all that you the atheist and then speak to the person - God punishes you - that it at least not sequentially. The object of your manipulation has the right to object and tell - you the atheist. It is all clearly. But when the person who claims for scientific perception of the world someone shames or accuses - nobody sees in it problems. I urge to realize that charges of other people demand a faith in  to a shower.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> we Begin that the experiment proving that consciousness has already been delivered does not participate in a choice. That the choice happens some SECONDS prior to its realization. It is time. There was no such experiment. It was more true, but to its interpretation it is so much questions that it is possible to consider that it was not. S> Secondly, scientifically it is not confirmed any "the true elementary quality" (that you mean, by the way?) something speaking about presence  of a choice, capable to be beyond universal relationship of cause and effect. The quantum world all is constructed on probabilities. There is no universal relationship of cause and effect.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, anonymous, you wrote: A> there was no such experiment. It was more true, but to its interpretation it is so much questions that it is possible to consider that it was not. And is more detailed? S>> Secondly, scientifically it is not confirmed any "the true elementary quality" (that you mean, by the way?) something speaking about presence  of a choice, capable to be beyond universal relationship of cause and effect. A> the quantum world all is constructed on probabilities. There is no universal relationship of cause and effect. Also what? At first, a problem of the quantum world - in impossibility of measurement. Not the fact that is the true randomness, we cannot simply measure. Secondly, even if there is the true randomness - that you cannot affect this true randomness meaningly, on it no speech about fault can be.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> it is no mandatory even itself believing, but the exterior observer can fix inconsistency. Here you speak that God is not present, and in other place consider through a prism of God. You say lies or in that that you the atheist, or in that that you calculate to see punishment from God. How my inconsistency facilitates a fate of the believer? Type on the Last Judgement it will bring down all on me? Its actions should depend on its faith, instead of from my disbelief or inconsistency. And me to spit that the detached onlooker there fixes. Sense of guilt always is always connected to violation of internal setting of the one who tests fault. And you now state that the believing person should be the believer only among believers. A>> do not demand. You urge to regret actually you and not to use your faith against you. But is not present. S> the sequence of actions Is necessary. If you want to manipulate others - that tell all that you trust in god/gods then you will have the right to manipulation through " of gods". If in one place you speak that the atheist, in other call to  from God - that you are not serial. To me to spit. Further that? You will refuse a faith at my presence? You will allow also to itself to be inconsistent? S> it is important to be serial. No, not important.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Sense of shame for the last acts implies a faith that you could arrive differently, but made it. I.e. that the choice is not predetermined, not defined by mutual definiteness of all phenomena and processes and depends on certain "free will" which is above a material world. Sense of shame  appeared to build relations in group. If you feel fault before someone this someone it is normal too something is dissatisfied with you. Ignoring of discontent of others is very dangerous to a survival. I do not say about banalities that for your acts you can beat. Besides it the group operates less effectively and can be forced out other group.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Really - anybody from you will not accuse the computer of that that it made a wrong choice. After all it is algorithm - you it can launch one million times and a choice will be the same - all instructions fulfill equally. Even if add  and the choice will differ at each start of function - all the same the computer is not guilty, since cannot affect on  in any way. Yes 90 % of people if something not so work on the computer accuse the computer. So it is good, but is not present.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> That is put? You that sequentially try to operate. Probably, all that I "try", actually only result of predefiniteness. All my thoughts and actions can be only a consequence of mathematical inevitability of driving of the particles submitting to laws physicists.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: S> Describe "emotionally colored" in scientific terms. Look at determination of emotion at psychologists. To understand "emotionally colored", compare - beer is not present and - BEER ! The first - representation of the Boolean value, the second contains a rich dial-up of the information. S> that the person did not forget something - it is possible to repeat some times and to result an illustration Here another. Here the mysticism is not necessary, enough to consider that the person consists of thoughts, emotions and a carcass. Only it is necessary to consider that these 3 components are always interconnected, their influence is against each other great.

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Re: Feeling of fault/shame and determinism

Hello, Shmj, you wrote: Judging by title, you put equality sign between concepts "shame" and "wines". It so? S> Sense of shame for the last acts implies a faith that you could arrive differently, but made it. Thought of this statement, but 100 % cannot agree with it. Here you went along the street, suddenly fainted, falling, casually pushed the child under wheels of the passing machine. Whether you will test sense of guilt? Most likely yes. Whether you believe, what could arrive differently? Hardly. What now, on streets not to walk? S> I.e. that the choice is not predetermined, not defined by mutual definiteness of all phenomena and processes and depends on certain "free will" which is above a material world. And here I can not agree. If to dig to the essence - all is reduced to algorithms. Unfortunately. With the present freedom in choosing would be more interesting S> As if you try to humiliate another - you believe that the person in the position is guilty itself. And it is a singularity of our animal low mentality. Not to reflect deeply why it so arrived, not to estimate chance of performance by it of your valuable "recommendations" about change of, and simply to demand what want above. And there - who appears more strongly. S> I.e. that it HAD a CHOICE to arrive differently, but it meaningly did not use it. .. You believe that the consciousness does not submit to universal relationship of cause and effect. Yes, to us it is favourable  a situation, as if everyone has a choice so easier to manipulate. S> really - anybody from you will not accuse the computer of that that it made a wrong choice. After all it is algorithm - you it can launch one million times and a choice will be the same - all instructions fulfill equally. Even if add  and the choice will differ at each start of function - all the same the computer is not guilty, since cannot affect on  in any way. S> But why you offend each other, speak about fault, instead of concern one another as to the computer which simply works under the program? S> to change the program it is possible the information. I.e. simply lead up to convergence that it is possible to fulfill such that and such instructions and to receive such that result. S> and when it is a question of insults, censure or about self-flagellation - that of the general with realignment of the program it has no anything. This consequence of that you trust in that that in the person there is SOMETHING that is adjusted  by a method. You do not receive the additional helpful information when you offend or when you offend yourselves. Well why, an insult it too the information. A message from a society to the individual - change the behavior or we reject you. And you will die in loneliness.